Accused of being racist

[Montagu90]

Hi all

I have NC and don't want a potential flaming tarnishing my TTC posts!

Had an upsetting run in today that has made me have a long hard look at some assumptions I made and question whether I was in fact, being racist.

I don't consider myself in anyway racist and am not one of those 'I'm not racist but...' people. However, please tell me if in the below scenario IWBU

DH and I are avid foodies and like to try foods from various parts of the world. We really enjoy Asian, Thai, Vietnamese food but although love Indian food, we can never seem to master it at home. Over Christmas I attempted my fourth Biryani only to fall once again at the right balance and texture of rice.

So I decided this weekend to try once more. I went to a really good local greengrocers who happen to be run by an Indian couple and therefore have a good varied range of Indian spices and things I can usually never find (ghee for example). I picked up the ingredients for my recipe but noticed a few other customers had bought these packs to make up various Indian curries which have all the bits you need in them. So I picked up one of these too.

When I got to the till I asked the man whether they were any good. He replied they seem to be popular but he hasn't tried them himself. I then laughed and said I've never quite managed the perfect Biryani and I don't suppose he has any tips for the perfect recipe? He got visibly cross and said 'why, just because I'm Indian I must know how to cook a good curry?' I stuttered and apologised if I'd caused any offence, I was just genuinely asking if he could offer me any assistance... he then said he didn't go around asking every white person how to make gravy and I should consider what I say before making such racist comments.

I got out of there quite quickly but just felt awful. I've since wondered why I asked him... the fact that he ran a shop which had a specialist section on Indian food was certainly part of it. However, if the shop had been run by a white man, I don't think I would have asked.

So I did make an assumption based on his perceived culture. But I see this as no different to asking my Welsh friend for their best Rarebit recipe (which she happily gave me). I definitely wouldn't have stopped a random man in the street so where he was working definitely had something to do with it.

I am now sitting at home feeling awful that someone thinks of me this way when all I wanted was to make a nice Saturday night meal.

So WIBU?

Anyone saying this is racist is being bloody ridiculous. OP was in a specialist food shop and asked the person working there if they had any tips. the darning socks example is a poor comparison because they don't specialise in repairs in a clothes shop. I used to work in a fabric shop people would come in and ask how to make things, advice on fabrics, problem with patterns etc because we were a specialist shop - so someone may have come in and asked how to darn socks because we sold darning wool. That's reasonable. When I bought silk curtains from a high street store they had creases I called the shop and they told me how to get them out. If they didn't do the ironing at home I still wouldn't have expected them to be offended. Also regarding ethnicity I know many second and third generation Indians and more often that not the meals that were cooked at home were traditional Indian food rather than western dishes, therefore they know how to cook a good curry. I wouldn't ask a random person in the street how to make a Byriani but I would ask an Indian friend and I would certainly ask in a specialist shop regardless of their ethnicity.

Where is the racism and xenophobia at asking about food from a person’s country of origin? Is it equally hateful to eg ask for recommendations about places to visit in the country?

Just read the bit about a police complaint!

I am sure they would be highly delighted to investigate this. Said nobody ever, except the professionally offended.

I am a cleaner I went to a lady's house the other day (to clean obviously) she comes from Pakistan she stated several things during the course of my visit

The ring on her stove was broken and the landlord wasn't fixing it she stated she was embarrassed to have family round for a meal as "you know what cooking is like in Pakistan huge meals lots of variety" it's impossible to do this with three rings

She made several comments about finding things multicultural in the area but she wanted to go to one with a more Pakistani approach to things

She assumed her issues with the landlord were because they don't have British passport yet

She thinks English food looks "interesting "

And she loves British accents

None of which I took offence to however if I had turned around and said that all Pakistani people like to cook huge meals would I be considered racist for making an assumption based on her appearance and accent? It can all be turned around

the only thing I think is racist about your OP is when you said if he was a white man you wouldn't have asked ask yourself why? Why wouldn't you have asked men cook too

It's because you asked him at all because he's probably a sexist fuck who never cooks at home and leaves it all to the little wifey.

I did wonder about this. Some years ago I taught a lot of second generation kids of north Indian families (though north India is a large place) and they were by far the most sexist kids I've ever met- every one of the lads had the most ridiculous views; shockingly so compared to any other Indian I've ever met.

I’m from Essex but don’t live there anymore. I quite often get asked if I danced around my white handbag wearing my white shoes when I was younger.

You were not racist. If I go into a shoe shop I would ask the assistant questions about the shoes. You are perfectly right to assume someone in a shop would have knowledge of its products and what you do with them.

To the Pp who said the police would be interested. Ha ha. The police are busy dealing with murders, rapes and robberies where I live.

I don't think you sound racist. If anything he sounds a bit sexist, like cooking is beneath him as a man. But that said you could have given him a bit of a history that you've given us, like "oh I've never got this right" just a one liner.

I think he was rude. If it was a random man in the street I get his point but it was in his shop and I would ask the person working there if they new about a product they sold regardless of what they looked like

And i don't say sexist becuase hes asian but because of his comm3nt and the degree of offence he took. But it's not the only interpretation. Maybe he doesn't like he asked questions or was having a bad day.

Also, how did he know YOU weren't Indian?

I'm afraid it was a racist remark.

May I suggest you read, 'Why I Am No Longer Speaking to White People About Race.'

By all means, don't go back if that is the stance you've taken but before you act on that, why not make one more trip to apologise.

Hopefully, he hasn't logged your racist remark with the police.
Is it still (or was ever) the case that if somebody thinks something is racist, then it IS, in the eyes of the law, racist? I think that might have been one of the recommendation of the Steve Lawrence inquiry. So in this case, shop keeper reports racist incident to the police, police investigate, then what? OP gets some sort of criminal record?

I don't think what you said was racist in the slightest, OP, despite what the "Professionally offended" brigade would have you believe.

Picking up on the comments with regards to asking randoms. A few weeks ago I was in Sainsbury's and looking at wine in said aisle. An elderly gentleman - total stranger - approached me with the words, "Could you possibly help me my dear? I am entertaining this evening and haven't a clue about wine but my guests do. You look like you know what to look for." As it happens I do know quite a bit about wine and was able to help for which he was very grateful. Does this mean I look like a total p*head? 😹😹😹

@KennDodd no she would get a caution and be told to apologise.

@CrazyDuchess I always wonder on these threads people why they say "that's not real racism". They seem unaware that racism is covert as well as overt just like sexism. I'm glad you and a few posters are also happy to point it out.

Oh never just "accept a caution" - it's an admission of guilt!

@Rafflesway the "professionally offended" brigade as you call them, are likely to be people from ethnic minorities who have to put up with shit like what the OP said day in and day out so we understand where the shop keeper is coming from.

He sounds like a knob who could have easily have said “Sorry I don’t cook curry” rather than being a snowflake and losing a customer.

However, if the shop had been run by a white man, I don't think I would have asked

So you weren't just asking because there are a couple of specialist aisles. You were asking because there are a couple of specialist aisles and you made a judgement based on his race. That's what makes it racist. If you could hand on heart say you'd have asked the same if he was white, then it would be a bit different...

I think it was a question based on a slightly presumptuous stereotype, on the basis that nothing about that situation indicated he would know about cooking curry (he’s not a chef for example). His race alone shouldn’t be seen as an indicator of his ability to cook curry.

That said - stop beating yourself up! It wasn’t intentionally racist, you aren’t a terrible person. You said something slightly thoughtless / insensitive. You’ll know better next time. It’s ok!

Most people are accidentally racist at some time or another. It doesn’t mean you’re a terrible person. It means you’re a human, navigating a world where nothing is black and white (sorry for the pun) and we are all learning all the time.

Lots of people will comment on this thread and say ‘how ridiculous, of course you weren’t racist’. But it’s so important that we recognise that racism isn’t goose stepping down a high street with a banner saying white pride: it’s actually a huge range, from tiny accidental microagressions to fully fledged abuse. We shouldn’t see those things as equal, but we should recognise where we can learn and improve and change our behaviour. We don’t need to be defensive and feel like we’ve been accused of being this generation’s Hitler. We just need to take these moments as learning opportunities, and do better next time.

@nocoolnamesleft Please read my post two up which clarifies what I meant by this...and the rest of the thread.

In 2019 I’d have thought we all knew that it’s the perception of the person who is hurt that generally trumps the offenders intent.

If a child feels bullied at school we uphold their right to not feel attacked and the person who made them feel bullied is expected to reflect on and adjust their behaviour.

You didn’t ask him if the packs were any good, you weren’t asking him if he’s ever cooked Biryani, you weren’t asking if the product you’d picked up was popular.

You said you’d never been able to make the perfect Biryani.
Perhaps he felt your question implied that all Indians know how to make absolutely amazing curry because they do it all the time/it’s all they eat.

I think to be honest you sound like you are in the habit of making “authenticity” signalling small talk with various shop keepers. Your logic seems dodgy on that in the first place, why would you assume that a person selling a particular product amongst others is any good at using it? Or even the best person to ask about it?

The internet is full of millions of recipes. You will make a much better biryani by reading highly rated and reviewed recipes online rather than asking the guy who runs the grocery shop.

If he was a chef in a restaurant that served biryani you might have been on to something.

I had, thanks.

Perhaps it will be easier and safer if you are white British to just interact with people you know for a fact are white British. That way you won't put a foot wrong. And Polish do the same and only interact with other Polish people. Afro-Caribbean's
should try and avoid black Africans. Estonians need to be careful that they don't mistake someone from Finland to be Estonian. It's a minefield and there is always someone somewhere who is determined to take something the wrong way.

OP was having what she thought was a pleasant exchange with an Indian chap who sold Indian food. Only he turned out to be a bad tempered prick. OP should ignore him and the other drama llamas on this thread. You are not a racist.

Order off Amazon op. Saves the dodgy small talk!

Well I am struggling Wetwipes to understand what "Shit" the OP is supposed to have said.

I'm Irish and have had the Mick taken out of me all my life. Even my DH tells waiters to put extra potatoes on my plate so I feel at home etc. 😂
If someone asked me how to make soda bread or a good Irish stew I would feel proud of my heritage.

If this guy is so touchy then I don't think working in a specialist food shop is quite the right career for him. I have used many specialist food shops during my life and would never hesitate to ask for cooking tips from the staff. I have always found these staff to be delighted to give advice.

Hopefully he hasn't logged complaint with police for being racist? Are you being serious, I have asked many people over the years who are Indian about cooking and spices they use in curry, does that make me racist? Seriously in2019 people class this as racist? Christ on a bike, my daughter loves my roasts and always asks if I will be doing one Sunday maybe I will have her done for sexisum cause I'm a woman! Would love to hear Congo with police though I wonder if they would attend lol