Accused of being racist

[Montagu90]

Hi all

I have NC and don't want a potential flaming tarnishing my TTC posts!

Had an upsetting run in today that has made me have a long hard look at some assumptions I made and question whether I was in fact, being racist.

I don't consider myself in anyway racist and am not one of those 'I'm not racist but...' people. However, please tell me if in the below scenario IWBU

DH and I are avid foodies and like to try foods from various parts of the world. We really enjoy Asian, Thai, Vietnamese food but although love Indian food, we can never seem to master it at home. Over Christmas I attempted my fourth Biryani only to fall once again at the right balance and texture of rice.

So I decided this weekend to try once more. I went to a really good local greengrocers who happen to be run by an Indian couple and therefore have a good varied range of Indian spices and things I can usually never find (ghee for example). I picked up the ingredients for my recipe but noticed a few other customers had bought these packs to make up various Indian curries which have all the bits you need in them. So I picked up one of these too.

When I got to the till I asked the man whether they were any good. He replied they seem to be popular but he hasn't tried them himself. I then laughed and said I've never quite managed the perfect Biryani and I don't suppose he has any tips for the perfect recipe? He got visibly cross and said 'why, just because I'm Indian I must know how to cook a good curry?' I stuttered and apologised if I'd caused any offence, I was just genuinely asking if he could offer me any assistance... he then said he didn't go around asking every white person how to make gravy and I should consider what I say before making such racist comments.

I got out of there quite quickly but just felt awful. I've since wondered why I asked him... the fact that he ran a shop which had a specialist section on Indian food was certainly part of it. However, if the shop had been run by a white man, I don't think I would have asked.

So I did make an assumption based on his perceived culture. But I see this as no different to asking my Welsh friend for their best Rarebit recipe (which she happily gave me). I definitely wouldn't have stopped a random man in the street so where he was working definitely had something to do with it.

I am now sitting at home feeling awful that someone thinks of me this way when all I wanted was to make a nice Saturday night meal.

So WIBU?

Oh right Jacq

I am well aware that Asian people are expected to be compliant and understanding if they are not there is something wrong with them

And that people from a Caribbean background maybe more prickly and have a chip on their shoulder

But you know what regardless people feel hurt and angry and fed up with the assumptions and have their own personality and react in different ways

But you know what regardless people feel hurt and angry and fed up with the assumptions and have their own personality and react in different ways

I totally get that. I said in my very first post that I understood why he was irritated.

FWIW the training was absolutely not to be passive and was to respond but in a way that didn’t have the potential (or as much potential) to exacerbate a potentially volatile situation.

In this situation OP knew the man used to live in India, so not a 3rd generation immigrant...

I never said the man in question was third generation the point I was making is that people are going to call it out more

And yes I can grasp what the training was about

Weights-the SOLE reason I referred to my racial identity was because you used yours precisely to legitimise (or attempt to.legitimise) your point of view. In stating "we whites" you did that quite clearly. So talk about having your cake and eating it.

Actually, attitudes like yours make my life harder. You are painting non-white in a victim role, intentionally or otherwise. I don't need or want that-thanks. People who take offence in an unreasonable way make it harder for genuine complaints to be heard. You are entitled to your views, but just fyi they make my life harder when you live them out..

Good grief you weren't being in the least racist. I haven't read the whole thread but being Mumsnet there is probably a PST accusing you of cultural appropriation for trying to cook byriani.

That you can’t make an assumption about an Indian person working in a food shop is laughable.

The same assumption could be made for anyone working in any shop.

I can’t believe this is being discussed. In the meantime racism remains rife.

People like weight ensure that everyone is so terrified of offending anyone that people no longer to speak

And yes I can grasp what the training was about

You really don’t like people trying to discuss with you do you

I wouldn’t have responded if I didn’t

Did you observe the training, take part in the training ?

He probably got annoyed because you assumed he did the cooking at home . His wife probably does it all

Thinking before you speak and checking you unconscious bias and stereotyping shouldn't be frightening. It's common courtesy that has not regularly been afforded to many.

The OP wasn't being racist but she was corrected by the man and instead of thinking "my bad!", she comes on here looking for justification.

There is nothing to be terrified about. We seem comfortable being forthright about sexism and secist terminology but for many that logic and expectations do not extend to race.

I wonder why some people look for all sorts of excuses to excuse their behaviour. It's terrifying? If a man said it was terrifying knowing how to treat a woman with respect or to know what the right thing is yo say, what would you say to him?

I am Indian. The assumptions made about my identity has really been, over the years, torture by a thousand cuts.

"I think Saris are so elegant! Can you teach me how to drape one?' Fuck all if I know. Just because I am Indian does not mean I love yoga ayurvedha meditation sarees. And please not another person asking me about the perfect dal recipe. I don't cook Indian often. I prefer sushi.

So yes, OP, I'd have been very annoyed by your stereotyping. I love me a good biriyani, but it's a complex dish, my husband makes it better than I do (a sore point) and it would irritate me if somebody puts me on the spot, assuming that I know how to cook the perfect one (this would sadly be the case even if I happen to work in an Indian grocery- as far as I know you don't need to be an expert cook in the cuisine that you are selling in your store!).

That said, the shopkeeper could have handled this better. He didn't have to be that confrontational. He could have put it across in a better way. He must be having a real bad day to risk a long term customer like OP.

@TheHorseyouRodeInOn the majority of home cooked Indian food I've had has been cooked by men of Indian origin. On the occasions they haven't cooked it, it has been their mother or grandmother who has done the cooking who tends to be 70+.

Now if you are talking about the Indian food which is cooked by takeaways that tends to be Pakistani or Bangladeshi in origin.

And yet I bet there isn’t a Scottish person in the world who would be offended if they were asked how to correctly wear a kilt

Slithyove, so if no Scottish person have ever or would ever feel offended by being asked how to wear a kilt, this man had no right to feel offended? He was wrong or worse to feel offended and say he was offended?

Interesting rule for determining whether a person should or shouldn't feel offended if assumptions are made about simply because of their race. It's all about whether or not a Scottish person had ever or would ever feel offended about a kilt question.

Erm, YABU. You asked the shopkeeper for tips on making a biryani, not a specific question about a product he stocks. So for everyone saying ‘oh he runs a speciality food shop so should be ok with questions’ I say no. He sells the stock, he isn’t a biriyani chef.

Oh and asking your welsh friend for a rarebit recipe is not the same - she is a friend so you would know her a little better. You asked for biriyani tips just because he looked Indian to you.

If a man said it was terrifying knowing how to treat a woman with respect or to know what the right thing is to say, what would you say to him?

That would depend on the man

If he was a known and obvious misogynist, expressing it in a "you can't say anything these days" sort of way, I'd politely point out a few things he might perhaps have a think about

If on the other hand he was a normally decent type and seemed genuinely worried about "what he'd done", I might wonder if he'd met the type of woman who feels all men are b**tards who can't do anything right and have to be put down at every turn just on principle

And if I didn't know either way I'd maybe do a bit of gentle probing to find out how he'd come to ask

Geez - just noticed this thread. Hard to believe asking advice about how best to use the products someone sells in a food shop can cause so much offence.
I'm a Scot and have regularly been asked about what is in Haggis, how to cook it, when to eat it etc. Answer 'I don't eat it - sorry, can't advise you'.
Can't imagine wanting to batter them as rampant racists for asking or mak8ng assumptions because of my accent.

Because being asked how to do something based on your known cultural origins isn’t racist.

especially since it’s nothing to do with skin colour.

I bet if op had a white shopkeeper who she knew had returned from India 10 years ago, she’d ask them as well.

He was wrong to call it racist. It minimises true racism.

Had he said ‘please don’t ask if I have tips on Biryani cooking because I’m indian’, OP could have explained it was because he also worked around Indian food.

If someone sees me working in a food shop, knows I’m British, sees mixed race skin.

Are they wrong to say ‘I don’t suppose you have any tips for the perfect Yorkshire pudding”? Is it racist?

The question has come from COO knowledge and context of food shop. Nothing to do with skin colour surely?

Lovely hypothetical, but the OP specifically said that their decision was entirely motivated by skin colour.

Puzzledandpissedoff, apply your reasoning to what Calledyoulastnight wrote. My response was to her post. If applied your reasoning to what she said, it would be totally unfair to her. I have no reason to assume she is a known racist for instance.

Lovely hypothetical, but the OP specifically said that their decision was entirely motivated by skin colour.

But equally his response seems to based on her skin colour too. How did he know she wasn't Indian?

Tornfromtheinside, you are really clutching at straws here.