Accused of being racist

[Montagu90]

Hi all

I have NC and don't want a potential flaming tarnishing my TTC posts!

Had an upsetting run in today that has made me have a long hard look at some assumptions I made and question whether I was in fact, being racist.

I don't consider myself in anyway racist and am not one of those 'I'm not racist but...' people. However, please tell me if in the below scenario IWBU

DH and I are avid foodies and like to try foods from various parts of the world. We really enjoy Asian, Thai, Vietnamese food but although love Indian food, we can never seem to master it at home. Over Christmas I attempted my fourth Biryani only to fall once again at the right balance and texture of rice.

So I decided this weekend to try once more. I went to a really good local greengrocers who happen to be run by an Indian couple and therefore have a good varied range of Indian spices and things I can usually never find (ghee for example). I picked up the ingredients for my recipe but noticed a few other customers had bought these packs to make up various Indian curries which have all the bits you need in them. So I picked up one of these too.

When I got to the till I asked the man whether they were any good. He replied they seem to be popular but he hasn't tried them himself. I then laughed and said I've never quite managed the perfect Biryani and I don't suppose he has any tips for the perfect recipe? He got visibly cross and said 'why, just because I'm Indian I must know how to cook a good curry?' I stuttered and apologised if I'd caused any offence, I was just genuinely asking if he could offer me any assistance... he then said he didn't go around asking every white person how to make gravy and I should consider what I say before making such racist comments.

I got out of there quite quickly but just felt awful. I've since wondered why I asked him... the fact that he ran a shop which had a specialist section on Indian food was certainly part of it. However, if the shop had been run by a white man, I don't think I would have asked.

So I did make an assumption based on his perceived culture. But I see this as no different to asking my Welsh friend for their best Rarebit recipe (which she happily gave me). I definitely wouldn't have stopped a random man in the street so where he was working definitely had something to do with it.

I am now sitting at home feeling awful that someone thinks of me this way when all I wanted was to make a nice Saturday night meal.

So WIBU?

We white folks must stop making excuses for our unconscious bias Ness and ignorance. It was not okay to ask him that question and he had every reason to be offended.

As a white person, you do not have to face the day in and day out microaggression, unwelcome and hurtful treatment because of assumptions based on your race.

Learn from the experience and do better next time. Stop looking for sympathy. It sickens me when we do these things then try to turn the whole thing around and make ourselves into the victim. Suddenly the OP wants a "dear, dear you did nothing wrong, silly mean Indian man". The poor well-intended white lady being made to feel bad by the Indian man just because she insulted him. How dare he!

You insulted him, he told you. Take the lesson learned and move on. Stop looking for sympathy and trying to turn the man into a villain. Should he have shut up and suck it up? Suck up your insult. Exactly how should he have responded?

He may have had to put up with these nonsensical assumptions every day, several times a day. You just want him to stand there and smile sweetly at you?

I’m not sure I’d call this racism. Stereotyping perhaps, which may legitimately have annoyed him, but isn’t racism usually inferring that the race/ practice/ trait etc in question is somehow inferior? Happy to be corrected and if he took offence that’s his prerogative.

But you treated this man differently to a white man because of his race. That is the essence of racist behaviour

No it isn't, not it this case. It's merely the acknowledgement that people from different cultures eat different foods. I'm the only jewish member of my team at work. If someone wanted to know how to make chicken soup, then to ignore me and ask a Pakistani colleague instead would be ridiculous.

He may have had to put up with these nonsensical assumptions every day, several times a day. You just want him to stand there and smile sweetly at you?

To a large extent that's retail real life yes

Exactly @Singingtherapy - the whole basis of equality and diversity legislation is recognising difference and being respectful and mindful of it, not treating everyone exactly the same.

Dont worry Lovely, of course you were not being racist! I say this as a mixed raced woman.
India is a beautiful country with delicious food. You made a presumption and is was wrong. But that's fine and it should not have been offensive. I would be happy for anyone to think i was indian!

I don't think this was racist. But of course that is my personal opinion and someone else could have taken it differently.

I wouldn't take offence at being asked how to make English dishes if I was in another country - I would take it as a compliment that they were interested and thought that my ideas would be of benefit.

Also, if they are known to be specialists I would expect to be asked about what was in my shop 🤷🏽‍♀️

*But she didn’t just ask about the product he sold - which he did answer politely.

She asked him for tips on cooking a byriani?!*

If it was a shop stocking specialist Indian ingredients, those do probably include the ingredients for a biryani, quite a standard dish.

Totally agree with how everyday racism wears people down, but that doesn't mean her comments qualified as that. OP does seem to have asked because he was the owner of a specialist food shop.

If you've previously had a chatty relationship
with the owners, I'd probably say when I was next in that I didn't mean to offend, and that I had only asked as he sells those ingredients. He would probably appreciate that and it would clear the air.

He sounds like a dick, tbh. And as for his 'I don't go round asking English people how to make gravy', if he did, they would happily tell him.
Massive chip on his shoulder. Don't think any more about it.

Does the man's views and feelings not count for anything? Whether or not you agree with him is beside the point. He was not happy with her assumption that as an Indian he must know how to cook Briyani. There are many Indians born here and elsewhere who probably know less about cooking Briyani than the OP. It's stereotyping.

It may not be racist but these unconscious bias and stereotyping really gets people down. Just take some time to speak to people most affected by this.

So EasyAndy because this happens often in retail it's okay for this man to deal with behaviours and questions motivated by his race? So it's okay in retail for people to be treated differently in an unwelcome way because of their race?

In this case the Indian man's feelings matter more to me than the OP's feeling. The OP seems to feel bad because the man dared to be assertive. She is hurt because he dared to speak up to and say he did not appreciate her silly assumption.

Poor OP. Not! Poor man who have to put up with the nonsense.

Good on those who wouldn't have minded but this man did mind.

Weightsandmeasures
Learn from the experience and do better next time. Stop looking for sympathy. It sickens me when we do these things then try to turn the whole thing around and make ourselves into the victim. Suddenly the OP wants a "dear, dear you did nothing wrong, silly mean Indian man". The poor well-intended white lady being made to feel bad by the Indian man just because she insulted him. How dare he!

On the one hand, you are critical of white people and their unconscious bias and on the other, you make all sorts of baseless critical assumptions about the OP's intentions:

Suddenly the OP wants a "dear, dear you did nothing wrong, silly mean Indian man". The poor well-intended white lady being made to feel bad by the Indian man just because she insulted him. How dare he!

I can't see any evidence to support your interpretation of OP's motivations.

I've just googled one of the Asian food stores I go to. Comments from the store include staff being passionate about food and happy to offer advice on ingredients and recipes.

I see, so now the issue is my interpretation of what the OP is seeking from her post and not the behaviour of the OP? Is that the real issue here? And my interpretation of what the OP is seeking here is equivalent to the assumption she made about the man based on his race? Really? Pull the other one.

The OP did come on here seeking reassurance that she did nothing wrong and hoping that people who be of the opinion that the man was being unreasonable or too sensitive.

The OP did come on here seeking reassurance that she did nothing wrong and hoping that people who be of the opinion that the man was being unreasonable or too sensitive

No. I can see why he was irritated. I also think he handled it poorly. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.

Fascicle, so because that's the case for a store you buy from, it's okay for all Indians in other unrelated stores to be asked questions based on assumptions about their race (ie recipes for various curries that they carry in their heads because the cook it on a regular basis?).

The man was unhappy about and felt offended. He expressed his displeasure. Should he not have or does his feelings not count because there is a store where they actively ask customers to ask them about recipes?

Does he need permission before he can express his feelings?

How did he handle it poorly? Now we want to give instructions on how he should express his vexation? He was blunt and to the point. Good on him. He is not there to spare her blushes.

Now we want to give instructions on how he should express his vexation?

When you’re in a customer facing role, then yes.

Especially when the question - despite him finding it offensive - was reasonable in the circumstances.

As I’ve said a couple of times I would handle things differently.

weights you are so PC you are interminably sanctimonious.

Weightsandmeasures-that is over simplistic, sanctimonious twaddle, and as I say that as a mixed race person. It is NOT the case that every time an ethnic minority person feels or claims to feel offended that they are justified in doing so. The world is more complicated than that.

Also, bearing in mind that the OP has an Asian husband, she might have more real life experience of racism and stereotyping than you do as a which person.

I can live with being sanctimonious. What you'd prefer is me saying "oh he was being oversensitive" and that the OP was perfectly justified and that the Indian man handled it poorly. Sorry, no can do. I don't buy into people wanting to have their cake and eat it. The man was offended. Said he was. That's that.

So EasyAndy because this happens often in retail it's okay for this man to deal with behaviours and questions motivated by his race? So it's okay in retail for people to be treated differently in an unwelcome way because of their race?

Can only go by my own experience of this obviously, but I run a shop, that sells specialist Asian foods, with my Asian partner, but I'm white

And yeah you get asked all manner of fucking stupid questions all day, like I said earlier no one ever asks me for curry tips, but my partner, who's never boiled an egg would get asked again and again, many of them also very far off the mark, like a Sri Lankans bound to know about a kashmiri dish yeah?

People aren't doing it to be rude, some are idiots and some are unthinking or unaware and yeah to a point it is suggestive of an unconscious bias on their part, but that's not always a negative thing, there is not intent. They are asking to share in your perceived expertise which is a very strange way to insult someone

And coming back to the real life retail point, you get barraged with these and other stupid questions day in, day out, you've got to be pretty amenable to work in a convenience/retail food sector I think or you're just going to hate it. You meet so many different people every day and some are gonna rub.

Armadillo, your status of mixed-race does not give you ownership of the feelings of all ethnic minorities.

Saying you are mixed-race does not make your views any more valid than mine. You have no idea of the status of my son, husband, and other family members I am extremely close to and I certainly don't use them to legitimise my views here.

Maybe you would handle things differently

How many times do you think he has been patronized I’m guessing many many times assumptions are made daily

You know now we have third generation children who’s grandparents came to this country and had to deal with horrendous abuse and treated differently because of assumptions made many are simply not going to appease being patronized or having assumptions made about them good or bad because of their skin colour or ethnic background. Good for them and if others feel uncomfortable then so be it

You know now we have third generation children who’s grandparents came to this country and had to deal with horrendous abuse and treated differently because of assumptions made many are simply not going to appease being patronized or having assumptions made about them good or bad because of their skin colour or ethnic background. Good for them and if others feel uncomfortable then so be it

Yes thanks I’m aware of that.

The way I would handle it comes from training I received when working for an Islamic charity offering diversionary activities for disenfranchised youth.

Weightsandmeasures
I see, so now the issue is my interpretation of what the OP is seeking from her post and not the behaviour of the OP? Is that the real issue here? And my interpretation of what the OP is seeking here is equivalent to the assumption she made about the man based on his race?

Not at all an accurate summary of what I said.

Fascicle, so because that's the case for a store you buy from, it's okay for all Indians in other unrelated stores to be asked questions based on assumptions about their race (ie recipes for various curries that they carry in their heads because the cook it on a regular basis?).

More incorrect assumptions. I think it is reasonable to assume that staff in e.g. an Asian food store (or any store focusing on foods from a particular country/region/or on a particular style of cooking) might be able to discuss foods and recipes relating to the items they sell - this was a significant factor in OP's questions. Personally, I think it is reasonable expectation that a member of staff in a(ny) specialist shop, regardless of their ethnicity, might provide advice relating to products they sell. I also think it is possible to give advice on food without necessarily having cooked it.