To think Brexit could make the country safer with better punishments

[TerriTummyTowels]

Disclosure, I voted remain but today this story broke the camel's back as it were:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6608935/Ex-Westminster-public-schoolboy-strapped-naked-frame-caned-24-times.html#article-6608935

A British lad dealt drugs to his friends while in Singapore and now he's going to get 24 lashes while tied down. People in the comments say that Singapore is one of the safest countries in the world because people there are scared of the effective punishments.

So I'm starting to think one side benefit of leaving the EU is that we won't have to explain ourselves to anyone else if we decide to reintroduce similarly effective punishments?

Obviously people would need to support it but polls up until recently showed a slim majority in the UK supporting the death penalty for certain criminals so we could hold a referendum on these types of things.

From my experience in the US the states with the least laws and lax gun control are the safest and most law abiding.

Data from my state shows the most law abiding citizens are those who have a permit to carry concealed weapons. (DH and I both have one)

Data from my state shows the most law abiding citizens are those who have a permit to carry concealed weapons. (DH and I both have one)

Presumably because they don't give out permits to those with criminal convictions? Which seems to make it a bit of a moot point.

It also won't show any data on crimes which are committed but not recorded - the so called "dark figure" of crime which doesn't show up in official stats. Given the nature of policing in the US, if there are racial disparities in concealed carry licences, I'm fairly certain there are also racial disparities in how different populations are policed and the likelihood of being caught.

I'd rather live in a country with this kind of punishment, because then people might stop taking the piss when it comes to abiding by the law. I wouldn't suffer this punishment because I'm a good citizen. And with DNA tests and cctv available, now is the time to stop doubting convictions. Drugs killl people. This guys actions will lead to the death of others. The cane is NOTHING.

Brexit is likely to make the country unsafer as it'll tank the economy. Increased poverty and reduced police numbers won't be a great combination.

When the economy sinks into the ground, the police force will have even less than it already does, poverty will increase, schools will have less money, and the population will respond to this accordingly. You’re fucking nuts if a.) you think the threat of physical punishment/death penalty is the way to make people abide by the law, and b.) if you think that Brexit will have the outcome you’ve outlined in your OP. We need police, we need to lower poverty, we need to improve schools and encourage a more equal society in order to reduce crime. If you care to do a bit of research, look at the US....

Don’t worry though because:

‘long term it will be brilliant’

‘We survived two world wars on our own’

‘We are the uk’

It is silly to try and transpose gun carrying culture (and the important history behind it) to the uk. As is, frankly , vice versa.

Backwoodsgirl but correlation doesn't mean causation. You may well have a lower murder rate but that might be to do with completely separate factors. There may be fewer social issues in your state. There may be less poverty. There may be higher rates of employment. There may be much lower rates of organised crime. There may be lower population density. Until you control for all these factors, and look for any confounding variables, those statistics are meaningless.

As for the OP, don't believe you voted Remain, not if you believe that the DM comments section proves the correctness of anything. I seriously believe a massive gap in our education system is the lack of teaching critical thinking. It should be part of our learning from primary school.

Just because the majority think a particular way doesn't mean they're right. It could just mean they're brainwashed by the same crappy newspaper.
Just because two factors exist concurrently doesn't mean one factor influences the other: e.g. we both wear shorts more and eat more ice cream in the summer: We don't eat more ice cream because we wear shorts in the summer.

Just because the majority think a particular way doesn't mean they're right

Isn't that basically what democracy and society is? There's no external book of how things should be, we decide what is proper by consensus of the majority.

So this is why Brexit is the morally right thing to do even if you voted remain. Even the prime minister who voted remain says that. The same would also go for corporal punishment if the majority agreed which was why I started this thread to see what the consensus is.

No. The majority thinking a certain way means they get to dictate policy. It doesn’t actually make them right.

So evidence might say one thing about reducing crime rate but because people don’t believe it never gets enacted into policy.

As for your Brexit argument, we’re in this mess because we can’t get a majority to agree on anything.

Democracy is more complicated than winner takes all.

A balanced democracy must have concern for minority rights.

A balanced democracy has 'checks and balances' to ensure fairness.

The Brexit obsession with winner takes all is very, very damaging.

No, I think it’s barbaric and has no place in civilised society.

Remain must be desperate if it's now putting up goady posts like this. You need to remember to name change OP for this to be more effective in future.

Remain must be desperate if it’s putting up goady posts like this

Sounds more like a desperate Brexiteer in Remain clothing given the political reviews expressed, the newspaper quoted and the comment ‘Brexit is the morally right thing to do even if you voted Remain.’

The lack of subtlety of thinking displayed by the OP is astonishing. The consideration that the majority view is always right is the thinking that permits FGM, hounding of homosexuals, cutting off hands for stealing and lynching people for being black in a public place.

When I was a child the majority thought it was okay to be casually racist (just watch some 70s comedies - Love Thy Neighbour etc.). That didn’t make it right. I’d much rather listen to enlightened thinkers from different political traditions and form my own viewpoint than automatically to the views of the majority.

It is possible to hold two opposing thoughts in your head at the same time OP and weigh up their merits. You should try it some time.

OP you won't get a consensus from Mumsnet!

This just shows what a brainless rag the Daily Fail is, and how brainless and sheep-like it's average readership is.

You have to despair really that anyone would consider voting leave on the basis that we can then change to go back to being like Singapore.

It is a former British colony, yes. I've been there many years ago and I did enjoy my visit. That doesn't mean though that I want the UK to become Singapore though. It is a fairly totalitarian regime. It's crime and punishment system is still akin to that left by the British, but we did ditch most of the barbaric shit like the death penalty and flogging long before we joined the then Common Market

My objections to the death penalty: it is barbaric. It makes a murderer of the State, and doesn't necessarily deter potential murderers. Also, miscarriages of justice are certainly not unknown. When they inevitably happen there is no way back if the death penalty has already been carried out. All of that holds true whether you voted leave or remain (I voted remain, and still would btw).

My objections to flogging are similar. Yes, official apologies and compensation could be issued in the cases of miscarriages of justice, but it remains barbaric, with a high risk of serious injury. In the past it was often the go-to punishment for so-called lesser crimes. It wasn't a deterrent either.

Why would we want to go back to such bollocks? What the fuck does it have to do with the EU?

Alternatively Ragaroo we could take the really sensible option and legalise them. You know, like we do with other drugs, tobacco, alcohol...

The same would also go for corporal punishment if the majority agreed which was why I started this thread to see what the consensus is. The majority appeared to agree with Hitler, not such a great outcome, eh?
And that's why we don't have generally have referenda.

I'd rather live in a country with this kind of punishment, because then people might stop taking the piss when it comes to abiding by the law. I wouldn't suffer this punishment because I'm a good citizen. And with DNA tests and cctv available, now is the time to stop doubting convictions. Drugs killl people. This guys actions will lead to the death of others. The cane is NOTHING.

DNA tests and CCTV are not foolproof. And gay people can be 'good citizens' too, but they're still criminals in Singapore.

For those of you who are for this (although I suspect OP might be a GF), if your son or brother or other family member was caught selling some weed to his friends would you be okay with him being caned 24 times and given permanent scars and possibly injuries? Alongside spending 20 years in a bare cell?

If it's your daughter who gets caught though, don't worry, women aren't allowed to be caned in Singapore. All they have to worry about is marital rape being legal.

Amazing that MNHQ have not moved this to the Brexit thread?!

Unfortunately, Brexit will mean we won't be party to the EU databases of criminals. So, they will be coming here and we won't know until they kill/rob/rape people. Then we won't be able to send them home because we won't know where they're from.

Oh do fuck off.

So some research before posting this shit. Corporal punishment never mind capital punishment does absolutely fuck all to reduce crime. It's a right wing, vile, reactive and regressive post OP and the fact you think there should be a referendum on it makes me want to weep for what we have become.

Ragaroo do you have children? Would you feel that this is a fair punishment for your son for sharing some drugs amongst friends?

So you‘re looking forward to the possibility of introduction of Sharia Law-like corporal punishment, in a post-Brexit UK?