to not want to go by train.

[Frazzled2207]

I have posted before about husband who is very worried about climate change. I am also worried and we are taking lots of steps to reduce our carbon footprint but there's a limit to what I'm prepared to do (at the moment). Currently down to one car and saving for an electric. Solar panels on roof (these cost a fortune). Cutting down on unnecessary purchases (he literally never buys new clothes but accepts stuff I get him for birthdays etc). Massively cut down on meat

Anyway he never wants to fly again. I have said that I am willing to cut down on flying to maybe once every year or two but am not going to say I'm never getting on a plane again.

So his best mate who we see very rarely lives in a nice part of Europe. I also get on well with the mate and his wife and they have kids similar ages to ours who are young primary age. They have invited us to stay this summer.

Husband wanted to look into going by train so I did. In some depth.
Train option costs between £800 and £1000 for four of us. We are up north so this means three hours in a train (cross London) then Eurostar to Paris (cross Paris) then four hours in a train. With two small children and luggage in tow. The way the train works we would leave the house at 6.30am and get there for 10pm.

Or.... there is a flight option. Both we and the friends are close to an airport and direct flight for all four of us costs £300 if we're savvy.

He thinks we should take the train despite the fact that it is enormously more expensive and stressful. I have suggested a compromise that we fly one way and train the other way. But I am not up for the train both ways. The kids are not easy to entertain and having to cross Paris with them in a bit of a rush on a summer Saturday fills me with dread, as well as getting to our friends' house really late when they will be super grumpy.

We can consider overnight in Paris etc but obviously it all adds to the cost and he has limited leave.

AIBU to not want to go by train? I have said me and the kids will fly and he can get the train. But he doesn't think that gives the right message to our children (that flying is an unnecessary luxury), nor does flying one way.

Both of us want to go to see the mate, if we just don't go there will need to go somewhere else for our summer holidays and will probably have exactly the same argument. I'm just not sure how to resolve this as we are both as stubborn as Mrs May and Mr Corbyn at the moment.

if it makes you feel any better, last summer I know of one family who drove to Turkey and another who drove to Albania!

@LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett correct I'm looking at a random date in June for tickets as they are not available for August yet.
So a bit cheaper is a possibility but I'm not counting on lots of offers for August.

In 2015 China emitted over 9000 million metric tonnes of carbon dioxide from fuel consumption, in the same year the UK emitted 389 million tonnes. I think 4 people on one flight versus 4 people on trains is so insignificant as to be not worthy of considering. I think your time that your have spent debating with DH and researching alternatives would have been better spent volunteering with a lobbyist group to get China to reduce its emissions.

Also, if the train you are riding in is electrically powered and that electricity is generated by burning fossil fuels in a power station, then the chances are that the lifetime carbon footprint of the train is close if not worse than the plane (article in New Scientist)

If your DH is absolutely serious about reducing his carbon footprint, he should not even be considering this vacation. He should only vacation where he can walk or bike to.

I think we would consider the train and it is perfectly reasonable for your husband to ask you to consider what he thinks is a more environmentally responsible alternative.
From his point of view, if he can't even persuade his own family to change their behaviour because of cost and inconvenience, then we truly are fucked.
If the extra ££ and concerns about DC behaviour really are that much of an issue to you, why not look at the relative carbon footprints of the two modes of travel, and find a means of off-setting? For example, supporting a tree planting scheme, cycling instead of car use, not buying meat, reducing energy consumption etc.

I would take the train over plane - for planning, I'd recommend the Man in Seat 61 website. He knows his trains.

@Frazzled2207 the three year cycle is a green travel idea I read about many years ago. I think it was called the Cinderella cycle but I can't find it online now.
We really do as much as we can and wish that many others would do it too. One change makes a difference but hundreds of thousands of one change would really help.
Good luck and enjoy your holiday whatever you do.

Look at something like this:

www.worldlandtrust.org/carbon-calculator/individual/

Or Trump Forest trumpforest.com

I mean personally I think we're fucked anyway because not enough people are willing to take responsibility for the environmental impact we're having, so just tell him that!

The green thing would be to buy or keep the smallest possible existing car running as long as possible....

Surely the really green thing is not to have a car at all.

Marta
yes agree there. He works from home so generally has a tiny footprint. No commuting whatsoever.
he does however accept that we need a car for our work and also for ferrying of children to and fro (not to school thankfully which is very close) but public transport in our area is very poor.

a car for MY work I mean

Good for him for caring. If more people looked into it the planet might have a chance. But it hasn't because the people that should care the most (those with kids) don't.

What is being left for the next generation is a true disgrace.

I looked on climatecare.org at cost of off setting our flight and it's £16.57
I've heard that some carbon off setters are better than others.
We also support 2 environmental charities as part of our eco efforts. I may add carbon off setting to that list.

Tell him you'll fly and he can take the kids by train - just so they can get the right message.

This. I understand what he’s trying to achieve but he can’t control what you do.

If he won’t fly but you still want to go on hot foreign holidays annually-you have problems.

Sea to ski
Yeah fair point. I shall look for that New Scientist article.
The crux is he really does want to see his friend but broadly would be happy to buy a little house in the forest, be self sufficient and move around as little as possible.
My expectations however are a little more 'normal' for want of a better word.

WIth all due respect, I think your husband has lost his mind.

Ask him what he's going to do if your children grow up and emigrate overseas, say AUstralia, the states, China ... Is he never going to see them again? Ask them not to visit?

Can his friend come to you?

For Lille, you need the Eurostar to Brussels. Although the timetables tend to be published only 3 months in advance they will be plenty of departures.

I don't necessarily think the Eurostar is the worst option with DC as I prefer the extra space and I like being able to take lots of hand luggage with activities, food & drink for the journey.

Recently acquaintances of mine travelled to Ibiza to live and work for 9-12 months. They did that overland with 2 small children, a dog and their worldly belongings. Eco efforts on their part. If they can do that, you can do the train. Make sure your DH leads on all the travel organisation and parenting while travelling though. Might make it more enjoyable for you?

@RelaxedSelfGuiding well yes but they would probably fly so carbon footprint overall no better.

The most environmentally damaging thing you can do is reproduce. Was he always this way? Was he concerned about environmental impact when you were trying to conceive? It’s all too late for tha planet anyway now. We’ve fucked it irreparably.
Having said that, I would give the train a go with older children; with younger ones, no. It’s a lot to ask of little kids for a non-essential journey.

I agree with him. Fortunately my DP has similar ethics to me. I wish more people cared about the planet.

I have to go to the other end of the UK with two under 5s and really wanted to go on the train but am going to have to fly at least this time because there are no cheap tickets for the whole journey and I am too scared to spend 10 hours on several trains with a lively 18 month old who is too young for colouring, reading or even discussion what we can see out of the window. I am going to have to go by train once he turns two as flying gets more expensive - at least I can feel better about my carbon footprint while I'm tearing my hair out trying to keep them busy. It really doesn't help that fast trains stop for about 30 seconds, it's impossible to get a pushchair onto them and there is very limited luggage space. 18 month old is huge and I couldn't carry him any significant distance in a carrier (certainly not while also carrying a rucksack with our luggage). Once they're older eg 3 and 7 then the train will be easier.
It's a journey I have to do because a relative moved to the other side of the country. Can anyone recommend a good carbon offsetting website as someone said some are better than others?

Where are you going roughly? We did London to Austria by train when DD was a baby and changed in Paris (you're not wrong about the hell of Paris transfers with DC and luggage) but got the sleeper from Paris to Munich, which was fine. So we didn't have too many awake hours on the train and got there at a reasonable hour. We posted a load of milk and baby food ahead and booked a taxi with a child seat. We did go to a Kinderhotel though so they had everything we needed pretty much. I used Railbookers. I don't think YABU. You have to make some compromises with young DC. They grow up...

@HotSauceCommittee yes reproducing is one of the biggest problems. Why I've limited to 2 (I'd love more) and my cousin has decided never to have any. I have many other friends who have decided never to have children as part of their eco efforts. One other friend is vegan as well as child-free...but flies lots! 🤦🏼‍♀️

well yes but they would probably fly so carbon footprint overall no better

But they are doing it, not you.