to not want to go by train.

[Frazzled2207]

I have posted before about husband who is very worried about climate change. I am also worried and we are taking lots of steps to reduce our carbon footprint but there's a limit to what I'm prepared to do (at the moment). Currently down to one car and saving for an electric. Solar panels on roof (these cost a fortune). Cutting down on unnecessary purchases (he literally never buys new clothes but accepts stuff I get him for birthdays etc). Massively cut down on meat

Anyway he never wants to fly again. I have said that I am willing to cut down on flying to maybe once every year or two but am not going to say I'm never getting on a plane again.

So his best mate who we see very rarely lives in a nice part of Europe. I also get on well with the mate and his wife and they have kids similar ages to ours who are young primary age. They have invited us to stay this summer.

Husband wanted to look into going by train so I did. In some depth.
Train option costs between £800 and £1000 for four of us. We are up north so this means three hours in a train (cross London) then Eurostar to Paris (cross Paris) then four hours in a train. With two small children and luggage in tow. The way the train works we would leave the house at 6.30am and get there for 10pm.

Or.... there is a flight option. Both we and the friends are close to an airport and direct flight for all four of us costs £300 if we're savvy.

He thinks we should take the train despite the fact that it is enormously more expensive and stressful. I have suggested a compromise that we fly one way and train the other way. But I am not up for the train both ways. The kids are not easy to entertain and having to cross Paris with them in a bit of a rush on a summer Saturday fills me with dread, as well as getting to our friends' house really late when they will be super grumpy.

We can consider overnight in Paris etc but obviously it all adds to the cost and he has limited leave.

AIBU to not want to go by train? I have said me and the kids will fly and he can get the train. But he doesn't think that gives the right message to our children (that flying is an unnecessary luxury), nor does flying one way.

Both of us want to go to see the mate, if we just don't go there will need to go somewhere else for our summer holidays and will probably have exactly the same argument. I'm just not sure how to resolve this as we are both as stubborn as Mrs May and Mr Corbyn at the moment.

Which Paris station would you be leaving by ? If it's Gare de Lyon or Gare de L'est the transfer is easy.

I live in the south of France and my parents in the north of England - I've done the journey many times by train by myself with two small children and it wasn't that bad. I'm not convinced that the plane is particularly that much less stressful. From my town to my parent's town the plane is door to door almost as long as the train...

I'm surprised at the price differential actually - every time I've done it the plane has worked out as expensive as the train, but that might be because I'm tied to going at certain times. Or maybe airport transfer is very expensive where I am.

www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth

hopefully this link actually works

train journies are fab and I do think yours could be less- cheap seats on uk trains only get release 3mths out so you wont be seeing them now....maybe a family railcard will reduce it further as you kids are young ...
the station swop in Paris is easy - as there's walkways etc my DC have loved doing long train journeys as they are a lot less hassle than flying!- I think there is a french family railcard as well...
can recommend loco2 if you dont want to book direct.
(also like flying too but not security) we have done the 50/50 option - but just make sure you get the luggage sorted as you get a lot less flying ..
there is also the train from st pancras to avignon which is selling now - that is defineltly worth booking early and you can get the tgv from there to at least barcelona ......that removes the paris thing and gives an option of overnight in avignon which is lovely ...2 really good family friendly hotels in avignon just by the central station (which is a short train/bus trip from the tgv)
trains make the journey part of the holiday! - then fly back (that is my preference but dh/dc prefer to train both ways ...)

If you are going to drive defineitly book in some stops .....its a v long drive/way for dc and car journeys def more boring than train!

kirsty
that's good to know.
I'm surprised as well. The plane certainly can be very expensive however the route we would need is served by easyjet and some flights are still available in August for very cheap. The train fare seems more expensive, but much less variable. Both we and the friend live very close to the airport which puts the convenience factor with the plane.

With gare de lyon- gare du Nord take the RER rather than the metro. You want to get the RER line D southbound, It's two stops. If I remember rightly there are lifts but they're easy to miss if you're not looking for them. Are your kids still of an age where you can strap them in a pushchair ? (sorry, didn't read everything).

If you do decide to go by train, buy a carnet on the Eurostar rather than queuing up at the ticket machine in the station.

I've no idea where you are leaving from or where you are going but is a ferry not a possibility?

Gare du nord - Gare du Lyon by RER D is 17 minutes.
But I totally get your point about luggage and DC after a long journey already

Speaking of genuine questions, how are electric cars better for the environment in terms of energy use (as opposed to emissions which is obvious)? Where does that electricity come from?

I find it weird that you have typed this:

he (and I) have read enough articles to understand that the planet is pretty much fucked unless people stop emitting carbon tomorrow. If a significant proportion of people were willing to drastically reduce their carbon footprint like he is suggesting then we would actually have a chance. Have you read the recent IPCC report? It's scary stuff.

and yet are not convinced enough for your family to do it. I have friends who have family in Germany and they always go by car. I'm amazed at their commitment to the cause. However, if you don't have to fly then don't. We have an 8 year old and a 10 year old and have flown once with them. It is not something we will be doing again in the foreseeable future. Last year was a UK holiday and this year we are going to France by ferry.

Good luck whatever you decide. I don't think your husband sounds OCD, I think he sounds as concerned as the rest of us should be.

There's a good website somewhere (I'll try and find it about) about carbon offsetting so you could do something else which would offset the carbon of your flight. Might be a compromise?

This is a short haul flight once or twice a year. Look at Teresa may and co, the duke of Sussex and n billion business people flitting about ewry 5 mins like they were popping out for milk (which I hardly use).
It's nothing in the grand scheme of things. I know it's good to live your principles but really the government needs to tackle these issues with legislation. Every supermarket is lit up like a Xmas tree all hours, there is so much corporate waste. I think your little holiday is not going to make the difference he thinks it will. Does he use a computer or mobile phone etc etc all that plastic and other waste.
Also do people think electricity is carbon free, where does it come from?

OP Apologise if this has been mentoned before, but have you looked at Interrail passes? For instance, if you are only going to France a one-country Interrail pass for 4 days travel within a month - 2 days out, 2 days return - for 2 adults (over 27) and 2 children (under 12= free; 2 children per paying adult) would be only 346 Euro.
www.interrail.eu/en/interrail-passes/one-country-pass/france

If you are travelling to more than one country, Global passes allow you to travel free for one day outward, one day return in your home country as well. That makes a very big difference to the overall cost of the trip.

I'd strongly advise making reservations for seats in advance but these are free in the UK and just a few Euros each in mainland Europe.
Main Interrail website with all sorts of other options here

Debate aside, it won't cost as much as you think to take the train - I think you're looking at dates where the cheaper prices haven't been released yet perhaps? DS and I got the Eurostar for under £100 last July and internal trains in Europe are cheap as chips. We did 7 countries for less than £450.

Maybe stop somewhere that isn't Paris for an over night - cheaper and if you stop somewhere near your friends you won't arrived frazzled....

I regularly take the train from the south of France to London, because it suits me (easier to work on the TGV than on a plane) and it's green.

Would I do it with kids? Um no probably not.

You fly with the kids and your OH can take the train alone if he doesn't want the CO2 on his conscience.

Sorry, forgot to add main Interrail link:

www.interrail.eu/en/interrail-passes

Also I don't know how easy it is to get TGV seats with inter rail especially if you have any constraints with regard to travel date and time. It's probably easier to get seats on the French intercity network but that takes flipping hours to get anywhere.

I think it's a laudable aim to do what you can to reduce your impact. But, I believe that part of that is recognising when your desire is limited by the tech. Yes, the train is better than flying, but for little people with lots of changes, it just doesn't work well. The cost is also ridiculous.

I think that you have to simply accept that travel internationally over long distances with two little ones, that satisfies your moral wishes, isn't possible. I'm sure that one day it will be, but that day is not near.

And you either travel - or don't - on that basis.

badly deforestation due to production of feed for livestock (most soya is eaten by livestock, not vegetarians) and methane production from cows - just 2 ways eating meat is incredibly bad for the planet.

Gawd he sounds tedious. Well, he doesn't get to dictate for you. I'd fly and he can take the kids on his own on the train.

Thanks for the links yeah have looked at interrail can bring down the cost a bit but only by making more stops. Unless you want to be really cheap and get boat across channel and slow trains etc you have to star with Eurostar which is not included (as far as I can tell). Theoretically we could interrail from Lille onwards but Trains to Lille are not at right times. And you have to pay supplements for the TGV. The difference in cost is tiny and it would take longer. If we lived in the south it would be very doable but the add on to travel from the north is lots. Although I will consider railcard as that could help.

@Frazzled2207 yes. I always think of the carbon footprint when booking travel. To the extent that if I travel in the UK for work I'll only do it by train.
Our family holidays are on a three year cycle. Stay I'm GB, then overland to Europe, third year we can have a flight.

We've also lived with 1 car for 11 years, I cloth nappied the DC, I BF them, we buy local, have milk delivered in glass bottles. We refuse, reduce, reuse, recycle in every way possible. Our monthly energy use is less than £70 pcm.
We've lowered our meat intake.
Our landfill bin only goes out 1 every four weeks and is less than 2/3 full.
I recycle lightbulbs, batteries, plastic bags. We buy second hand tech (our family weakness)
Use steel straws, sandwich wrappers, travel mugs and bottles. I'm always looking for ways to improve this.
Our roof is wrong direction to have solar panels sadly.
I'm always looking to do more.
If you could turn the train journey into an adventure I would do that. I'm with your DH on this one but I'm really biased. I wish my DH would agree with me and do train journeys to Europe in our flying year instead!

@PeridotCricket yes thinking of this but with the main changes in London and Paris it's not immediately obvious where without adding more travel time. I am going to consider side trip to Disney though. Kids would like that.

@SciFiScream that's fab and an idea I might suggest to dh. I might do it if I'm allowed to fly next year for example.

Mistigri - Your are perfectly correct to say that Interrail seats are limited on TGV trains, but you can book them three months in advance. In fact you are strongly advised to do so.
www.interrail.eu/en/plan-your-trip/trains-europe/high-speed-trains/tgv

The OP would have time to plan to do that, I think, for this summer holiday.

We travel quite a lot by train in Europe and, if on holiday, we prefer the ordinary trains to the superfast ones. You get more of a chance to see the country you are passing through.