To absolutely LOVE the new Gillette advert!! Outrage on Twitter.

[gluteustothemaximus]

Have you seen the new Gillette advert?

It's in line with the #metoo movement and it's just brilliant.

Reaction online is depressing though. It has pissed Piers Morgan off royally though, so that's excellent. Poor little snowflake. Offended at an advert

boys being allowed to show emotions / being allowed to cry / being allowed to cuddle & hug / being allowed to be sensitive to others - all really good things...

Which might eventually have a positive impact on male mental health. My father suffers with depression, he has always been one for bottling things up and being the macho "no one messes with me" type, because of the way he was brought up and expected to be as a child. He was the middle boy out of 3 and one of 5, father worked away in the navy, grew up in a really ruff town and he was expected to be the protector and the man of the family from a very young age and his father expected and encouraged him to be a fighter with no emotion. Eventually he started getting into too much trouble and they had to move but the attitude towards him being encouraged to be the tough male in the family was kept up. He suffered with mental health issues for years before anyone found out. It took for him to leave his family (his kids and wife)and have a break down for him to tell anyone.

Ds age 13 delighted me the other day by calling something toxic masculinity- and being right

I was so far is it from my age 13 level of understanding and learning

Which might eventually have a positive impact on male mental health.

I do hope so. Male suicide rates are so high. That's why I fail to see why this advert was received badly by so many.

I showed DH yesterday as he hadn't seen it, he saw no issue at all and was quite impressed with the advert. Also gave kudos to the Terry Crews clip in it (he'd watched the video in full previously).

All these guys going 'but women do it too, women are just as bad, what about false rape claims, trapping men with pregnancy, but but but'. It reminded me of a certain fucknugget of a president when presented with actual audio evidence of grab em by the pussy...

"But, but, HER emails!! Lock her up!"

Agree with the male mental health thing too. The men who are going "no one is looking at our problems here, why are men having these issues" It's not because men aren't being allowed to go fighting and drag women by the hair to the cave anymore, it's because they are fed the idea that THAT is a man, that you don't reach out to other men, you don't cry, you be strong and bottle it up.

You be better than the other men, stronger, if you're strong then you won't be called weak or a sissy so assert your dominance. With your peers, with women, at work (that clip in the ad with his hand on her, shushing her and clearly about to pass off her idea as his!) Be the alpha.

That's the kind of pressure that's leading to mental health issues in some men, and Gillette are saying no, that's not what being a man is about, don't bow down to that, you can be a man without being an alpha bastard.

But lovely men like my DH and DSs will look at this ad and scratch their heads thinking 'I'm already kind and respectful to women. Why am I being lectured'.

I read this sort of thing on MN all the time. I think of it as the Virtue Olympics.

Some men on social media have been moaning and saying 'what about women? Are they perfect?' and 'Women aren't angels!'

Why do they think an ad targeting adverse male behaviour suggests women are perfect?

I think it might be a better ad if it were just men standing up to toxic masculinity.

So none of the first bit; e.g. the boardroom clip one man says 'what I think she's trying to say' followed immediately by several men looking confused and saying 'er, that's what she did say. You're just repeating her'.
Or the two boys fighting and the boys will be boys comment immediately followed 'er, no' and the boys being told to treat each other nicely.

It would make it simpler for those deeply confused by it.

Best not to have mentioned metoo, as self comsumed fragile egoed piers morgan men think the only thing #metoo exposed is the horrible plight men face of being told to be accountable for their behaviour.

Dione I get it. Yes my boys are the bestest ever.

you can be a man without being an alpha bastard
hear hear!

Love the advert. Depressed by the negative reaction. I don't think a lot of men have quite grasped that toxic masculinity isn't some niche issue. It's everywhere and it hurts everyone, all the time - women, children, and men themselves. Two women killed by their partner a week, 1 in 4 women raped, all women facing sexual harassment or some kind of sexism, the male suicide rate, etc etc. It's a full blown crisis. An emergency. But they don't care. It's all about poor little them, being made to feel uncomfortable by an advert. I don't think any decent or intelligent person could be against the advert in the circumstances.

If I see an ad about racial bullying, I'm not going to go, 'that's so insulting, I don't bully anyone'. I'm aware that it happens and want to live in a decent society and so I'm fucking pleased about the advert.

So yeah, I don't care if there's an element of 'hopping on the bandwagon'. I'm all for it. Well done Gillette.

DH has said they were discussing it at work. Most of them weren't bothered by it. One would have preferred men's mental health and men being able to be emotional to have been mentioned too.

General consensus - you'll only feel lectured if you're the type of guy who identifies with some/all the views in the advert. Arseholes wont care, but it raises the profile of issues. And as often some nice guys will have that boys will be boys approach, if it means they stop and think a little then it's probably good.

I don't think a lot of men have quite grasped that toxic masculinity isn't some niche issue. It's everywhere and it hurts everyone, all the time

sorry - I am going to object to that - actually it is not everywhere, nor is it a crisis...

• it is undoubtedly endemic in some cultures and some geographic areas, but vast numbers of men are not that kind of man
• I think we have to be very careful to not stigmatise every man, and equally, to not believe everything we see online... if I were to walk you through my community - the vast majority of men here are nothing like this - undoubtedly there will be some - but it will not be anywhere as high as is being painted - online commentary and figures distort reality hugely - the reality is that most people are really quite decent
• where it does exist - that can be in 'toxic' levels - core to the person's character, or in minor ways which are perhaps learned behaviour from previous generations (entitlement / selfishness / etc.) - but the majority of men are not toxic in any way...

rebalancing equality and being sex blind does not need society to label men as toxic to get there - one reason I like this advert is that it labels behaviours, but demonstrates a good form of masculinity / character - it does not label men as toxic, and the vast majority are not - so I think it is very important to not take that line...

DH has said they were discussing it at work. Most of them weren't bothered by it. One would have preferred men's mental health and men being able to be emotional to have been mentioned too.

I think that the advert was more about visual demonstrations - which are more difficult to show for mental health / emotional sensitivity - equally it was primarily about challenging bad behaviours - and mental health and emotional issues are results of those behaviours, not the behaviours themselves - so while I can see the value, I think it would have made a far more confusing advert

Of course it’s everywhere. Male violence is in every society across the world. Every woman I have ever met and most men have been affected by male violence and sexual misconduct from being groped at to being roughed up outside the pub. Men are policed by other men if they don’t adhere to a certain code of masculinity. Fear of homosexuality means men cannot be true to themselves.

The men I know and love have risen above this but they are just as damaged by toxic masculinity and have to fight it as we are by female stereotyping and requirement for women to be pretty and sexually available.

That’s laughable to say it’s not “everywhere”
These types of men are in every single country on earth and I’d bet money on that.

Of course it’s everywhere. Male violence is in every society across the world. Every woman I have ever met and most men have been affected by male violence

^THIS

It is everywhere.
Find me a woman who has not suffered sexual assault or abuse from a slapped arse up to rape. When you find her I’ll agree it’s not everywhere.

It might be more prevalent in some areas, but it is everywhere.

DS1 summed it up nicely this morning I think when he said it was just kind of like an extension of Bill and Ted's 'Be Excellent to Each Other".

Which is our mantra here at home and with the people we interact with.

We are a wealthy white family in a first world country. My boys are both conventionally attractive (although obviously I am biased), socially and physically adept. They have started with the deck stacked in their favour.

DH and I have worked hard to make them aware of the extreme privilege they enjoy because of these things.

They did not create the privilege, it is not their fault, they bear no responsibility at all for it. But they can be aware of it and use it to make the world around them just a little bit better.

They lose nothing by being aware, and gain so much.

You can be big and strong and brave and even aggressive when necessary and still be gentle and kind and soft if you want. Telling boys it is all or nothing is as bad for them as it is for women and girls.

What was that working mum advert that was on over Christmas about?

Like i said i dont watch adverts but it seemed to cause a bit of a fuss

Think that might have been for the BBC (the working mum ad). People didn't like it for the usually reasons - woman/mother busy whilst man/father sits; and she's the one at fault. Certain didn't create any online frothing - certainly not at a notable level.

It is everywhere.
Find me a woman who has not suffered sexual assault or abuse from a slapped arse up to rape. When you find her I’ll agree it’s not everywhere.

It might be more prevalent in some areas, but it is everywhere.

I think you need to be careful about using such words to talk about this - I am not minimising that it is an issue, or that this advert is good in getting people to talk about it - but it is absolutely not everywhere, it is not all men and not all women have suffered in the way you describe - there are many sections of society where the natural instinct of men and women is one of consideration to others...

I do understand that for those who have lived in an environment where it is prevelent it is hard to understand that environments exist where it is not an issue - but they do.

When people with one view insist that it is an absolute view and don't accept that their view is coloured by their experience and that others may see a different angle, then all they will do is put the back up on those who see a different picture... Ultimately this has nothing to do with men / women, if society wants an equitable playing field and one where individuals respect each other regardless of sex, then it starts by recognising not just where an issue exists, but also that there is an existing model of respect which also exists...

the danger with the Gillette advert (and one reason why many men are cross with it) is that it stereotypes toxic behaviour as a male trait - whereas we all know that there are plenty of men and women who behave in ways which do not respect others (and equally plenty whose natural instinct is one of respect). Yes, the reality is that there is a built in societal perspective that condones a particular male type of behaviour, but:

• it is not exclusively male
• there are female equivalents
• there are men and women who behave in ways which are not appropriate
• there are plenty of parts of society where it is an issue
• equally there are plenty of parts of society where it is really not an issue... (the fact that someone posting on here doesn't know those is sad, but doesn't make it untrue)

I can absolutely state that for the vast majority of women in my circle, there will have been no form of abuse as described, how do I know - because we have discussed it... (if you want the flippant answer to your challenge though - start at the Queen and work your way down!) we mustn't let media / online discussions define the norm - there is a sufficient issue that an advert like this should be welcomed, but it is not the pandemic or crisis being discussed - places like mumsnet are naturally selective in the type of person using the forums and even more selective in the type of person who posts in certain areas / on certain threads - so let us not over-react and extrapolate inaccurate conclusions from a skewed sample...

if you want men to accept that there are elements of societal norm which could be changed, then you need to be careful how you do it - the advert is I think quite clever in promoting the strengths of a decent form of masculinity (even if some have read it wrongly as attacking all men) - so for those online and elsewhere to then take it and actually castigate all men / claim that all women have an issue, will simply close down what is otherwise a positive approach...

...there are many sections of society where the natural instinct of men and women is one of consideration to others...

Name one.

(if you want the flippant answer to your challenge though - start at the Queen and work your way down)

Ok

Queen -> Prince Andrew -> Jeffrey Epstein.

...there are many sections of society where the natural instinct of men and women is one of consideration to others...

Name one.

really?! :) not the detail for discussion on a public forum - all I will say is that it is very sad if there are those out there who are unaware that this is actually the norm in most parts of society - I have been in many types of society, different social levels / economic levels / UK and around the world and have lived also abroad in very 'machissmo' cultures - the reality is that at the core, the vast majority of men do not display toxic masculinity - they don't go around beating up women or raping them, they don't spend their time harassing them or sexually abusing them...

anyone who only has that experience of the world is in a very sad place - it is not the norm.

Is that your bar for toxic masculinity - beating up and raping women?

Men are insulted because they feel it's targeted at them. If they knew their behaviour was acceptable they'd feel it was targeted at someone else. So it's clear many men know they behave abysmally.

I put a public post up on Facebook about it. I can't wait to see a few twats who used to piss me off comment on it defending their general laddish behaviour.

Thing is I honestly think as a whole men see any issues like this in a NIMBY way.

I've been assaulted, stalked and raped before and to my face guys have been sympathetic but they still socialised with him. Why? Because it doesn't impact them. I won't say it doesn't hurt even though it was around a decade ago.

I was in College once and there was this guy who started to call me names and threatened me. Another guy who I didn't know too well challenged him and honestly I could've cried! I was sooooo happy that someone took notice and defended me.

I think women would respect men more if they did challenge assholes but 1. They either are assholes too or 2. They don't want to lose friends/seem weak.

It's funny because actually standing up for what you believe in despite backlash is nearly the definition of bravery.