Would you want another Brexit referendum?

[simplesalvage]

Inspired by the would you vote the same way thread.

I was initially against another referendum thinking it would be undemocratic to not accept the vote but after reading the 'would you vote the same' thread I think I have changed my mind.

1. It is not undemocratic to ask the same question to people again. You are asking the same people so they can vote the same way again if they wish. In fact asking again is more democratic. When you were in school you would always do repeat science experiments to ensure the results were accurate.
2. Someone said when you have to consent for an operation they take your consent multiple times in case you change your mind - when they first tell you about it and again just before the information. People do change their minds - they learn new information and just have a different state of mind.
3. We do have more information available now. A lot of what was said were lies (think £350 million available to the NHS) and we know a lot more about the general process of leaving now.
4. The population has changed since the referendum. Unfortunately a lot of people have died and 16/17 year olds who could not then now are old enough. Therefore another referendum would provide a more representative view of the future.
5. Another referendum is not likely to ask the same question. It would be more like do you want 'this' deal and to leave with it as that is what we can get (or no deal), or to remain etc.

My main worry about another referendum is that the country would probably descend in to chaos and a minority of leave voters might get a bit nasty.

Anyway sorry for the long post. I know a lot of people will probably disagree with me (like I did yesterday!). What are everyones thoughts?

Those saying that the result can't be ignored are missing the point - the result has not been ignored.

Vast sums have been spent following up on the referendum result trying to agree a Brexit deal and assess the consequences of the vote.

Three years and billions of pounds later we know and understand much more and it is clear that Brexit is unachievable without severe consequences that no-one in their right mind would countenance such as the Irish border issue.

but nations don’t have to accept WTO terms of trade and they don’t do so automatically. The WTO just provides a framework within which governments can negotiate

To avoid WTO terms we need to have trade deals in place with other markets. They take years to negotiate.

We've made virtually no progress on this score and some of our better bets (US/India for example) have made it clear to us that we're not a priority to them (and why would we be).

We do have to trade with someone. WTO terms will make that very difficult and if we crash out that's all we have for the short term at least.

People voted to leave and we’re warned of the consequences. Cameron tried at the time to get concessions before the vote- he gave it his best shot and he failed- the majority voted out.
This is not unachievable- the vote was to leave, and leave is what we should do

I think there are two good reasons for repeating the referendum.

1. There are now around 2 million people of voting age who weren't allowed to vote last time, and I think they should have a say (18 to 20 and half yo).

1. Of people who are still alive, more voted remain than leave in the previous referendum.

2.5 years changes things....or it doesn't. Either way you need to check.

I don't understand why the vote ever want to the public in the first place, so in that sense I am not in favour. I believe the politicians should vote in the best interests of the country - that sort of decision should never be in the hands of the public. People have torn apart voters for voting to leave or remain but truthfully most of the public are very unaware or uneducated when it comes to politics so how can you really have a go at voters? It should never have been handed over to the public in the first place.

There are now around 2 million people of voting age who weren't allowed to vote last time, and I think they should have a say

That’s the way the cookie crumbles I’m afraid. You were too young at the time? That’s too bad. It’s a very self-serving argument. We had one question to answer, one referendum. It was answered. We need to get on with it and leave.

There are now around 2 million people of voting age who weren't allowed to vote last time, and I think they should have a say as is life...i was born after we joined the EU and didnt get my say until I was 30 on the matter

It depends. It depends on the question. If the question is this deal or stay, then yes ask it. If it is basic stay or leave again, I'm not sure. Too many people don't understand the implications of leaving, to be fair none of us do, from the catastrophic impact on the nhs to our economy crashing, huge unemployment and massive poverty.

But I don't think she will ask the latter question if she was forced to ask, parliament would move to stop her if she did. But she's not stupid enough to ask a basic shoild we leave, yes or no, the last referendum shows what happens when you do that.

The bottom line is though what we currently face is a million miles away from what leavers voted for, so giving them a second chance, with more info at their disposal, isn't undemocratic.

No one voted thinking fuck me, yes, yes, I want to lose my hone and my job, I want to not be able to afford to eat, and fuck me, I'd love it if me or mine couldn't get the drugs we need or the medical attention we desperately require because so many of the doctors and nurses have been sent home.

bluntness100 yes yes yes to your final paragraph.

its a self serving argument to want a vote on the future of your country? Well I suppose so...but a bit unfair to arbitrarily deny it of people isn't it?

M3lon,

The vote was already held, you can’t keep deferring the decision on the basis that every year there will be turning 18- we’d never get anywhere.
There so much muddying the water. I think the vote was clear- people voted leave.
I don’t hear many people who voted leave complaining that they didn’t know what it would mean- only remainers speaking on their behalf.

I think we should have one on the final deal, yes. We were asked in theory would we choose to leave. We said yes. Now we should be given a clear picture of what brexit would look like and asked do we leave on these terms.

Yes

Now we should be given a clear picture of what brexit would look like and asked do we leave on these terms.

The deal just got shot down, the EU will not renogiate, we default to a no deal so I'm not sure how this shit show can be sorted.

A GE would put us back to square one, as if by a long shot Corbyn gets into power (difficult because he would have to come down one way or the other and that will change his anti neo lib rehtoric to possibly pro.)

Kicking the can down the road will cause other issues

missymoo Why do you think the vote was clear last time? From an information theory and statistics point of view it would have struggled to be LESS clear.

An almost identical number of people voted one way, voted the other and didn't vote at all.

If you flip a coin you have an equal chance of heads or tails. Do it once and you have your answer! But probably don;t base a massive decision on something that could so easily have gone either way on the day.

TBH I think that's the biggest single reason for doing a rerun. Its just to close to call the 'will of the people' when the percentages were that tight. There is clearly a limit to this...if it had been one vote in it, we would surely have had to do it again immediately. 52 48 is a bigger difference, but you get bigger swings due to weather etc than that.

Maybe the 'true' value was 55 45 and the swing variables are what made it so close...in which case leave we should absolutely do. but there is no way to tell the true value of the 'will of the people' off one measurement that came out that close to 50:50.

So I'd say do it again...and even if it comes up 51 49 then you know with much greater certainty that leave was the outcome than you do off the lone 52 48.

Much of the polling I've seen suggests nothing has changed - so chances are leave would win again. There is nothing to fear from being more certain.

I think there should be another referendum on the different 'deal' options, but you're only allowed to vote if you can answer the following question correctly:
What is the difference between the Customs Union and the Single Market?

Of course I'm joking - but I am convinced that most people don't have a good understanding of all the complicated issues involved in the different 'deal' options. I don't mean 'we were lied to by the brexiteers' but that it's actually hugely complex and something that should not be left to ignorant people to vote on.

I also think that if there was a second referendum there would be fighting in the streets - literally. You don't think the leave-voters would just roll over, do you? They would be furious.

Yes I think there is too much ambiguity because the last one wasn't supposed to be binding and had so much illegal activities. Let's clarify once and for all

No because I no longer trust the government to respect the results of a referendum. They have spent two years arguing about how they can get round implementing the result of the last referendum. I don't expect that to change.
As for the PP who said nothing has changed regarding the Scottish referendum. Britain leaving the EU is a substantial change and is contrary to the cornerstone of the 'No' campaign. So I think Scotland would have a valid case for calling for a re-run of the independence referendum. Of course, if Scotland voted for independence, I have no doubt that the UK Govt would with-hold information, refuse to co-operate and then say the vote had been made on incomplete information (sound familiar?) hence meaning a third vote was needed.

If they implemented a better voting system we could check each and every year if Scotland wanted out of the UK or the UK wanted out of EU.

I really don't get the whole 'one say in your whole life and that's your lot' approach to democracy.

M3lon,

Do you think that level of constant uncertainty by being able to change your mind every year on massive issues would be a good idea? Seriously?

It shouldn’t have happened in the first place. People just didn’t have a bloody clue.

A relative of mine said that she was (as advised by her friend) going to vote leave. It was because of immigration. I then pointed out as they were both immigrants that was a bit of a stupid reason. Her cleaners have (all bar one) been immigrants. Our doctors surgery is staffed with all immigrants. The local hospitals, shops, restaurants, even our builder and electrician. Most of our friends are first or second generation immigrants. So are a lot of my relatives.

I never believed the NHS bus lie, and was gobsmacked that anyone was stupid enough to.

The reasons people tell me as to why they voted to leave have been ignorant, non fact based (‘get out country back’, ‘make Britain great again’ bla bla bla) and shallow.

@M3lon

You say all of this because it suits you and your purposes. ‘It was a small majority!’ The point is - it was a majority. That’s it. That’s the result we have to honour.

Much of the polling I've seen suggests nothing has changed - so chances are leave would win again. There is nothing to fear from being more certain

In which case, apart from any other argument, why bother with the expense and hassle and kick the can further down the road? A referendum was held, people voted, the majority voted to leave. We don’t need to ‘be more certain’ - that’s not the way referendums work. You don’t get two bites at the apple. Do you make the same argument when you don’t like the outcome of a general election? You only want one because you hope the result would be different this time, be honest.

The majority voted to leave, so leave we must.

Yes, I didn't vote first time around because I felt that I didn't understand any of it well enough. Now I feel that I do and would vote remain.

Kicking the can down the road will cause other issues

Yes. Brexit isn't going away. It's true that Mrs. May has made a complete mess of things and it will make no deal both more likely and more painful than it had to be.

An almost identical number of people voted one way, voted the other and didn't vote at all.

“If you flip a coin you have an equal chance of heads or tails. Do it once and you have your answer! But probably don;t base a massive decision on something that could so easily have gone eithe

An almost identical number of people voted one way, voted the other and didn't vote at all.

If you flip a coin you have an equal chance of heads or tails. Do it once and you have your answer! But probably don;t base a massive decision on something that could so easily have gone either”

No M3lon, that is not how voting works- there was a clear majority in favour of leaving.

I cannot get my head round arguing against how the vote worked- especially after the event. How about no obscuring the result, no muddying the water or switching the goal posts, best of three, changing the required margin- the majority voted to leave, that’s the end of the matter as far as im concerned