AIBU to be angry that this is still happening!

[CosmicCanary]

Bristol News

I know this is not the only girl this has happened to. I know there will be many many girls who have suffered the same humiliation in school just today.

I was one of them many years ago.
So many times i bled through my pad in lesson but I knew asking to go to the toilet in would be met with a NO so i didn't bother. It was a humiliation in its self for the whole class to know you needed the loo. Such a public audience for an other wise private act.

I have already told my DDs should they need the toilet they must ask but if refused walk out of lesson if they absolutely cannot wait and I will deal with school.
They will not suffer the humiliation and shame of leaving blood on a school chair as I did.

It's not a personality flaw. It is a case of realising that sometimes rules have to be made and that we have to find a way of working within those rules.

Teachers on here have explained how you can make life easier, by speaking to the schools who will provide help, discreetly. You don't want to do that ok.

But then plenty of posters here explain how they or kids they have taught exploit going to the toilet in order to cause trouble. Whether you like it or not, schools have to develop policies to deal with it.

One way is to build open plan toilets which are easily supervised and provide nowhere for students to bunk off, vandalise, smoke or have fights but plenty of people don't want that (including a poster on here) even though schools with these toilets are more able to let students go during lessons because poor behaviour is virtually eliminated.

I really don't know why I'm bothering to discuss this - it has no impact on me. I just think sometimes the best results are achieved by working with the system rather than against it. You clearly don't agree which is your choice except it won't be you suffering the consequences but your daughter. Again, that is your choice. It just isn't one that I would make.

WiddlinDiddlin

What has gone wrong with behaviour in schools? That is a huge question.

In some schools there are very serious behaviour problems (see posts on here about drug taking, full scale vandalism etc) In other schools (I would say many schools) the problems are more low level but widespread. Kids can be silly. Even if they aren't wrecking the building they think it's a laugh to get out of a lesson and muck about with a mate in the toilet for 5 minutes.

Sending one child at a time is fine but if you've got what 35, 40 classes in a 7 form school then even 1 child per class is a lot of students in the toilet and clearly they can meet a friend who is in a different class just by pre arranging the time they will bunk off.

Clearly parents on here have an issue with recording toilet breaks and then deciding if the child is abusing it because they consider that their child should be allowed to go as frequently as they want (ignoring the fact that this will have to be applied to all students).

Do any of you not watch the schools programmes on tv? You can see what behaviour problems they are having to deal with.

I really don't know why I'm bothering to discuss this - it has no impact on me. I just think sometimes the best results are achieved by working with the system rather than against it. You clearly don't agree which is your choice except it won't be you suffering the consequences but your daughter. Again, that is your choice. It just isn't one that I would make

As I have said numerous times, my dd isn't suffering any consequences because her school do not have any stupid rules about how often DC are allowed to go to the toilet. They also have very good behaviour in the school overall, so this isn't an issue for them.

But then plenty of posters here explain how they or kids they have taught exploit going to the toilet in order to cause trouble. Whether you like it or not, schools have to develop policies to deal with it.

This needs to be dealt with I agree but the school needs to be a lot stricter on misbehaviour not penalise the well behaved students who happen to need to go to the toilet.

So how are you teaching your DD to be proud and unashamed and at the same time telling her that she has to stay in the classroom until she bleeds through her clothes or that she has to tell her teachers every time she has a period. It is none of their business which you don't seem to understand. As many PP have said their DD's would not want Teachers to know they are on their periods and also how does this work when they have 5 different lessons each day? You go up to each teacher at the beginning of the lesson and say, Sir I'm on my period and may need to go to the toilet? Or each teacher gets a note in the register Mary Jane is on her period today and may need a toilet break . Or you get a lovely Toilet pass, then everyone in the class also knows you are on your period, lovely. Also as I have said many times my DD's periods were not monthly, can you imagine the embarrassment of; Yes I know I had a period 2 weeks ago but now I am on again, for an 11 year old, (or any age DD).

In an ideal world pupils should be able to go to the toilet when they need too. But they can't because they can't be trusted and because children can't keep coming and going missing the lesson.

Techers have stated ways they handle the issue, using judgment, toilet passes, children making the time up. There are also ways girls can manage their periods to minimise accidents.

Unfortunately some people don't want to work within the system or want to be exempt from rules. These most likley the same parents causing issue with schools and driving teachers out.

Girls have never been able to have free acsess to toilets and it's never been a problem before, why now. I went to school and had irregular heavy periods. I managed to cope. I was eventually put on the pill due to risk of enemia, not for others convince an some seem to think taking medical intervention is.

Girls have never been able to have free access to toilets and it's never been a problem before, why now.

Well they do in my DD's school, and they don't have any problems with it.

I went to school and had irregular heavy periods. I managed to cope.

Lucky you, but your experience is not the same as every other girl. The poor little girl in the OP has bled through her clothing twice because Teachers who handle the issue, using judgement, toilet passes, children making the time up. have not let her go to the toilet. Do you think that this is acceptable? because I don't.

Tinty

Please explain then how schools should handle this? Clearly your daughter's school is exceptional but in any number of other schools how would you handle it?

How do you allow free access to toilets if only a small minority genuinely need but many more just seek to abuse it? How should teachers decide who is genuine?

How would you prevent students from hanging around in the toilets, larking about with friends, being silly? If all students are potentially allowed to leave lessons how does the school determine the culprit if serious vandalism is discovered?

Your objection to toilet passes makes no sense either. If your daughter leaves the classroom to go to the toilet does she ask permission first or are they just allowed to leave? Either way the teacher and all her classmates realise where she's going so what difference would showing a toilet pass make?

The poor little girl in the OP has bled through her clothing twice because Teachers who handle the issue, using judgement, toilet passes, children making the time up. have not let her go to the toilet. Do you think that this is acceptable? because I don't.

We don't actually know the whole story in this situation. The girl her parents and the school should work together to stop this happening. Not run to the papers and demand an unmanagble toilet free for all.

For all we know the girls using toilet paper for sanitary.

We don't actually know the whole story in this situation. The girl her parents and the school should work together to stop this happening. Not run to the papers and demand an unmanageable toilet free for all.

For all we know the girls using toilet paper for sanitary protection.

Nice bit of victim blaming there.

I think you find that the reason her parents went to the papers was because this is the second time it has happened. They worked with the school after the first time but the school still refused to let the DD go to the toilet again.

Also blaming the DD because she may have been using toilet roll instead of sanitary protection is just wrong, maybe she came on completely unexpectedly as often happens when DD's first have periods (and also may still happen even if they have been having periods for a while).

And No I don't know what the answer is for schools with badly behaved DC but I would hope that they would let DD's go to the toilet if they are not known to be trouble makers or skivvers, and take a judgement call if the trouble makers or skivvers say they are desperate. With a view to making them wait if they just go out and mess the toilets up after the first time.

Weetabix

Your objection to toilet passes makes no sense either. If your daughter leaves the classroom to go to the toilet does she ask permission first or are they just allowed to leave? Either way the teacher and all her classmates realise where she's going so what difference would showing a toilet pass make?

Absolutely I agree but in a young DD's head the other DC don't absolutely know where they are going if they speak quietly to the teacher and pop out and come back quietly. I'm sure they will guess though Whereas if they have to wave a toilet pass everyone knows where you are going.

Surely, if you have within a school, a SERIOUS problem of kids misusing the toilets and avoiding lessons, ... so serious that it is genuinely worth forcing kids to piss themselves or bleed through clothing... then you have a FAR bigger problem and the school is really failing quite dramatically.

^ ^
This

Cosmic Obviously ee are allowed to be questioned but your comments to myself and other teachers in this thread have been outrageously rude and in extreme bad faith.

I have explained why schools operate in this way several times. I have given you several practical steps to make the changes you wish to see happen. But it seems to me you just want to complain as you insist that you will not do anything to make these changes happen and instead wait for the critical situation to develop. I hope it does not for your daughters sake, as she has the right for her medical needs to be communicated to the school and taken into account.

There are steps you can take to influence school policy but if you'd rather complain that is your prerogative.

I see no further possible development to this conversation other than coverinh the same ground with increasingly rude and insulting replies directed to me so have a nice day.

Whereas if they have to wave a toilet pass everyone knows where you are going.

That's just hyperbole.

Why do they have to wave the toilet pass around so that everyone knows? If they can go up and whisper quietly to the teacher then they can go up and discreetly show a toilet pass. The ones we have are credit card size not a sandwich board that the student wears around their neck.

My daughter was in yr5 at primary school, had a male teacher and was the first girl in her class to start. We just dealt with it pragmatically. No fuss made. She had a fantastic headmistress who after I'd spoken to her in the morning took dd out of class, showed her where the disabled toilet was and checked that she was ok. It was just dealt with matter of factly. No huge drama or secret signals to teachers.

Yes they're inconvenient and a pain in the neck but don't let them rule your life. If they're that bad then get help from the GP. It doesn't have to be the pill. There are other things to try. I wouldn't let my dd struggle in this way when there are plenty of things available to make it a whole lot easier.

Cosmic Obviously ee are allowed to be questioned but your comments to myself and other teachers in this thread have been outrageously rude and in extreme bad faith.

Where?
Show me where i have been outrageously rude or communicated in bad faith?

Frankly I get the feeling you believe teachers should not be questioned. You dont like that parents refuse to accept that teachers approach to punishing all for the behaviour of some is removing childrens dignity.

All you have done is show that despite being the one who is in control you will blame the children/parents/naughty kids and make it everyone's issue but yours to solve.

as she has the right for her medical needs to be communicated to the school and taken into account.

IT IS NOT A MEDICAL NEED. IT IS A NORMAL PERIOD.

She has the right to use the toilet should she need to without having to explain why.

Why do they have to wave the toilet pass around so that everyone knows? If they can go up and whisper quietly to the teacher then they can go up and discreetly show a toilet pass. The ones we have are credit card size not a sandwich board that the student wears around their neck.

If they can just go up and show the Teacher a toilet pass then why can't they just go up and ask the Teacher to let them go to the toilet? They will also have to try and carry and hide their sanitary protection in their hand or take their bag, it is just another thing to think about when they can just go and ask to go to the toilet.

A toilet pass still means that you have to go to someone and tell them you are on your period presumably to get one? It is probably easier with an unselfconscious 9/10 year old than it is with a self concious 11 year old in Secondary school in amongst other pupils they may not have known for very long.

She had a fantastic headmistress who after I'd spoken to her in the morning took dd out of class, showed her where the disabled toilet was and checked that she was ok. It was just dealt with matter of factly. No huge drama or secret signals to teachers.

My DD would have absolutely have hated this at secondary school and do you think the head teacher or anyone other teachers would have the time to do this with every girl who starts their period at secondary school. (She may well have been different with a favoured Teacher at Primary School, but I'm not sure).

And I am not even going to ask why the school does not have sanitary provision in the main girls toilets rather than singling them out by making them go to the disabled toilets. My dd's school had them in Yr 5 toilets onwards.

I think this thread highlights how little support girls have within the education system. Which is depressing.

We have on the one hand posters stating they are just periods they should not rule your life while also stating they must see their GP/it is a medical issue/school must be told when a girl is having her period so they get special treatment/they do not need special treatment

The excuse I see from some teachers is that some children misuse being allowed out of class therefore no children should be allowed unless they have special permission.
A girls period which is within the realms of normal does not need to be discussed with the school. A girls privacy and dignity should not be removed simply because the school is struggling to correct poor behaviour from some students.

Some teachers have said there school has no such policy and they have no issues. Is this because those schools deal with bad behaviour more effectively? I think so.

I believe it is lazy of a school to enforce such a rule that removes the basic rights of its students. It shows that the school recognise a behaviour problem but instead of tackling the behaviour they feel removing the right to dignity and privacy is the answer all round is the answer.

I will continue to give my DD the same advice as I stated in my OP.
Not 1 toilet banning teacher on this thread has changed my mind. They have however succeed in making me feel young girls need a voice and that girls right to dignity and privacy is overlooked in favour of a restrictive rule that only helps teachers.

Some schools may nit have an issue with behaviour because of their student profile.

Some schools that I know of very, very quickly move on disruptive students by fair means or foul. Sometimes poor behaviour is a reflection of bad leadership in the school and sometimes it is just the nature of the demographic of that school, which is why schools have to implement policies to control that behaviour.

I'm not suggesting that periods need medical treatment or special treatment at school. I am suggesting that abnormal bleeding (ie changing a pad once or twice per hour) is indeed a medical problem that warrants medical attention.

I just don't understand how you expect schools to deal with the misbehaving that can go on in the toilets without in some way controlling who has access to them. It's no good saying "deal with it" because how will they know who the culprit is? If it's free access how will they know who was in there at the time? If they narrow it down to 3 or 4 students which one? Punish them all?

No the system isn't perfect but what else do you suggest?

Not all teachers and schools are like this. Some schools do allow students to the toilet. There was one week when we told to say only if you really need to and note times due to an act of vandalism but the perpetrator was caught and we moved on. I don't allow students out of my lesson when I am explaining a task and as incomplete class work has to be completed anyway they rarely 'take advantage'.

Leasons are only 50 mins. We used to use bathroom during changeover

All
I have just asked DDs about toilet opportunities.

Class starts at 8:35am
Morning break 11 am = going to the toilet is possible.
Lunch 1pm = you have to choose between eating or going to the toilet as the line for food is so long.
No afternoon break.
The children have 3 minutes to get from lesson to lesson if they are late it is a late mark. Going to the toilet is not accepted as an excuse.

AllTakenSoRubbishUsername Imagine that happening in the work place? That would be a court case, for sure
It does happen in the work place, and it doesn't result in court cases - teachers cannot just wander off to the loo when they feel like it, abandoning their classes. I have horrendous periods and IBS; no TA in the class (secondary, so most of us are on our own in classes) If you imagine we have heaps of free lessons, you're wrong. I have 3 non-teaching lessons out of 30, P1 Mon, P1 Tues, P6 Wed.
I am sympathetic to the children; generally the same children ask repeatedly - usually the chatty, lazy ones. A quick note in their diary means you can check if they're time-wasting by asking frequently throughout the day. if I think that they're desperate / could have a period, I let them go. Toilet passes for kids with genuine reasons to need to go frequently.
Bullying happens when kids congregate in the loo. Also vandalism.

If a girl needs to go to the toilet then she should go. If the teacher says no she should go anyway. I think teachers are so out of touch with what girls go through and how periods can vary for each girl they only look at it through their own experiences or have forgotten. A girl at 11 or 12 may not know very much about what she's dealing with and not know what to expect.
It's the whole strict discipline system gone mad. It's a school not a prison.
To be honest the teachers need educating about periods!!!!
I find it incredulous that any woman would be so cruel to a girl when of course she was a girl once and place discipline over understanding.
Perhaps some kind of code word system needs to be introduced so teachers know she really needs to be excused so the boys don't know the real reason but then I guess that could be abused.
But when I was at school if you needed the toilet you could ask to be excused and you were. The teachers would not force you to sit there if you needed to go. I think a lot of the discipline rules in the school system these days are out of control.
If a girl needs the toilet and is told no, she should go anyway. Full stop. Any punishment metered out as a result is punishing the girl for being a girl.

Girls at my school would leave lessons to piss about (no pun intended) in the toilets and then smear their period blood all over the walls of the cubicle.
Yes teachers should use their judgment in these situations BUT if your child disappears off to the toilets to escape lessons, or comes back in by banging open the door and announcing "i have been for a piss!!" then you can understand why teachers are less than happy about them going? (both of which happened on a regular basis at my school!)

Acerbics I agree with the majority of what you said. Schools have this rulr for a reason. Students attend school to attend X no of lessons a day and it's a teachers job to support them to access as much of this learning as possible. There will always be students at any school who will try wander the corridors as long as possible rather than be in class and this cannot be ignored

However menstruation and urination are not the same. They are not controlled by the same function. I can hold a wee in but I sure as hell can't hold my period in! Mother nature doesn't allow for forward planning unfortunately.

None of the schools I've worked in have had a break in between EVERY lesson and a 30 minute lunch break is often only long enough for those who have school dinners to get them. So many children have time off for periods when this isn't really necessary. Schools need to be careful not to demonize periods. Surely it's better to miss 10 minutes of a couple of lessons rather than a full day?

You really dislike teachers, OP. Your spite and bile is obvious.

If parents taught their children acceptable behaviour then there wouldn't be a problem.

Newsflash - we are paid to teach, not manage bad behaviour - that's the job of the parents.

Make it easy for heads to expel badly behave pupils again and there will be a vast improvement in behaviour and maybe kids will be trusted to go to the loo again without smoking or thumping someone.

I wonder what a teacher did to you to make you so bitter.

This happened to me. My dear friend Matt leant me his jumper to tie round my waist to cover up where I’d leaked. It was a long time ago but I’ll never forget it and always be grateful to him

I think some of the teachers on this thread have higher expectations of young girls' organisational skills than is realistic. I was a quiet, mature, cautious, compliant girl who would never have lied to a teacher or done anything like that, and I was caught out by bleeding at school more than once as a teenager -- and I didn't start till I was 15, so I wasn't even trying to manage this at the age of 11 like some girls. It's humiliating. I would never risk being the cause of that happening to a pupil.