AIBU to be angry that this is still happening!

[CosmicCanary]

Bristol News

I know this is not the only girl this has happened to. I know there will be many many girls who have suffered the same humiliation in school just today.

I was one of them many years ago.
So many times i bled through my pad in lesson but I knew asking to go to the toilet in would be met with a NO so i didn't bother. It was a humiliation in its self for the whole class to know you needed the loo. Such a public audience for an other wise private act.

I have already told my DDs should they need the toilet they must ask but if refused walk out of lesson if they absolutely cannot wait and I will deal with school.
They will not suffer the humiliation and shame of leaving blood on a school chair as I did.

I've told DD recently that she should walk out if and when she starts her period. I said if they give her detention, they'll soon regret it when I give them what for. It's a basic human right to use the toilet, in no situation outside of school would you ask permission to go to the toilet.
I've also made her an emergency pack for her locker, spare skirt, underwear, wipes and pads.
Both mine though would know to walk and we'll sort the consequences out later (DS is at primary but has medications and they make him need to go far more and he has to drink more as well when he's on the worse ones. We've only had one miserable teacher who was a cover who got the arse with him. She soon apologised when she moaned at me).

And as for "all their break"

Dd barely has time to eat or pee. By the time she's fought her way through the crowds or queued up to buy a bottle of water or managed to find a quiet spot away from the charging about/fighting/stampede the break has all but disappeared.

I don't think anyone's suggesting it's not true that girls might sometimes need to change their sanitary protection during lesson time, especially in the first year of their period.

They are trying to point out that if you allow toilet visits and half the class then claims they urgently need to go to the toilet every lesson, then some of them are taking the mickey because they want to go and hang around with their mates in the loo. And no, you can't easily tell who's not genuine - they are very convincing. Bullying, smoking, vandalism etc happen when this is allowed.

I don't know what the solution is though. I do my best to judge if someone's genuine and I let them go regardless of the rules if I'm pretty sure, but the students soon clock which teachers will let them, and begin to take advantage of it. It's very easy for non-teachers to dismiss this as petty and jobsworth, but it's really not.

I really could not careless if the teacher struggles to manage/decide which child is genuine therefore punishes all children. I think its wrong that another person is in control of somebody else's toileting needs!

Girls should not be forced in to a position of shame and humiliation because of their period.

At DDs school they have to carry planners everywhere with them. Surely some pages can be used as a tick chart to help with weedling out those who take the mick and ask to go every lesson. I would rather that than any girl go through what this young girl did.

@CosmicCanary You're right, it should be managed in a way that allows teachers to have discretion in who is allowed to go. I do honestly think you would care if indiscipline became rampant in your daughters classes though and that is one of the results of children being allowed to go whenever they want. If children can go whenever they like, we are unable to adequately supervise corridors for those children. This has resulted in pupils being bullied in toilets during lesson times in schools I have worked in. I know it seems frustratingly simple but it isn't for those of us managing it unfortunately.

Cee how would letting children go to the toilet disrupt the class? Is their an uproar if a child goes to the loo? Do the rest of the children revolt?

Also if children are being bullied in the toilets then your school has a bullying problem which will not be solved by stopping children from completing a basic human function. Children are bullied in the playground but you dont stop break time.
They are bullied in the lunch que but you dont stop lunch. Children are bullied walking inbetween lessons yet that does not cease.

There is not one reason you can come up with that will have me believe stopping all children going to the toilet because of a few is reasonable.

Its unfortunate but with forward planning 90% of accidents can be avoided.

... So one in 10 can't be avoided. Those 10% of children who are often not yet used to their bodily functions should be publicly humiliated just in case they are lying?

Like how in the criminal justice system it's better to imprison innocent people than to let a guilty person go free - oh no, wait, it isn't. That's the very opposite of the way our civilisation is supposed to run, unless you are a child and you've got fractions to learn.

Unless girls are expected to wear pads everyday even when not on their periods, I’m not sure how accidents can be avoided. A lot of teachers here seem to apply dictatorial policies because they can’t manage their students — if you’re a shit teacher, improve or quit. Don’t use dictatorial policies to deprive kids of their basic human rights. Maybe when teachers are also held accountable for their time in the classroom and have to bleed / pee / shit themselves in front of their students they’ll understand

I think another factor here is many secondary schools are too big for their own good

My previous school had a page in their planner were we would sign date and note the lesson when A child went to the loo. Meant we could see if they had just been in the previous lesson and could gage if they were taking the piss.

In my current school we're not meant to let them out at all. I think that is ridiculous but I don't always let them go I use my judgement and knowledge of the kids. I find most, if you turn them down once, don't ask again where as those who are desperate do. Plus with the girls you can see the panic in their faces when they ask and it is period related so I'll let them go with minimal fuss.

We weren’t allowed to go to the toilet between lessons in secondary school. The toilets were locked and you could only go if you had a pass from the teacher which you took to the office to obtain the key. It was for a very good reason tbf, before they brought that rule in lots of students would hang out in the loos to skip a portion of the next lesson. So you had break time, lunch time or the end of the day to go unless you really made a point to the teacher of being desperate. Dependent on which teacher it was, you may be given the pass to go.

They do have to be more stringent on secondary school kids than primary. Primary school kids are a lot less likely to piss about in the toilets for an hour to purposely miss lessons for example.

Maybe when teachers are also held accountable for their time in the classroom and have to bleed / pee / shit themselves in front of their students they’ll understand  mmm we are. As a teacher I'm not allowed to go to the loo during a lesson as can't leave a class unattended. We have to plan ahead and use our breaks accordingly which is what schools expect pupils to do. Not saying its right but if you thing teachers are forcing kids not to go to the loo during lessons then swan off themselves for the same reason then you're wrong.

in no situation outside of school would you to go to the toilet.

Really? You think that there are no jobs where people have to wait or ask permission before using the toilet?

Teachers, bus drivers, train drivers, checkout operators, surgeons - to name but a few. Are you ok with your bus driver taking a detour to nip to the loo?

I think many posters are looking through rose tinted glasses if they think that no girls ever lie in order to leave the classroom and that all girls are well behaved just by virtue of having periods.

I was always taught by my.mum to go to the toilet at break time and at the end of lunch. Doing this at least cuts down the number of in lesson requests albeit doesn't eradicate them. If there are less requests in general then maybe teachers will be more relaxed about the few that do happen.

Teachers are in a no win situation. Let everyone go who asks and suffer the major disruption to lessons, use discretion and then get criticised for abusing human rights.

Teachers, bus drivers, train drivers, checkout operators, surgeons - to name but a few. Are you ok with your bus driver taking a detour to nip to the loo?

This thread is about an 11 year old bleeding through her clothes in the classroom. Do you not see how inappropriate your argument is?

CosmicCanary

You honestly can't see why allowing pupils to go to the toilet during lessons isn't disruptive? Maybe not 1 person, quietly leaving and quickly returning but multiple students asking to go, then returning and asking the teacher to repeat what they missed plus the teacher having to keep an eye on how long each child has been gone for in case they are up to no good?

And as for behaviour and bullying - have you been into a school lately? Have you been on a bus at leaving time?

My son is a teacher in an outstanding school. The number of fights and serious incidents that they have is shocking.

Mistigri

Not really when it's posted in response to someone else saying " in no other walk of life do you have to ask permission to go to the toilet" then no, I don't think it's inappropriate.

If it is inappropriate to answer the question then it was inappropriate to ask it in the first place.

Weetabix arguing that 11 year olds should be left to bleed through their clothes because some adults do jobs that don't allow on-demand toilet breaks is wholly inappropriate however you spin it.

For a start, an 11 year old wouldn't be in the position of driving a bus, operating a supermarket till or doing surgery because they are eleven years old ffs.

This is a safeguarding issue, it's not about whether some adults have to acquire better bladder control than others.

Mistigri

Err, where have I said that 11 year olds should be left to bleed?

You are right. You can't compare school children with adults in the workplace - so what was the point of the PP doing so?

No point drawing comparisons by saying school children shouldn't have to ask because adults in the workplace don't.

If you have a problem with the comparison then take it up with the poster who made it.

Also, a lot of girls are embarrassed to use the toilet during busy times. In my school, we had:
-faulty locks
-students that would peer over or under the toilet door to embarrass you
-embarrassment over the rustling of pads as you change them
-no San Pro bins in every cubicle

You CANNOT compare the student experience of using the toilet with adult experiences.

It hardly disrupts the class if you let one student go at a time.
They can't mess about in the toilets at our school as it's open plan. Obviously the cubicles are private (and now don't have gaps top and bottom) but there's no door to go in.
It's much better as back in the 80s I was a pupil in the school I now work in and I was scared to use the old toilets in this block as older pupils would stand by the sinks smoking and bullying younger ones.

Oh and we have san pro bins in every cubicle.

It hardly disrupts the class if you let one student go at a time.

I can easily see how it does. Have you watched the "Educating..." programmes? You can see how the students behave. They don't quietly leave and slip back into class with the minimum of disruption. Then once the pupil is back the teacher has to settle them down, repeat what they've missed while they were gone and then repeat the process 6 or 7 times more for all the other students who need the loo.

And yes, the new open plan toilets are good. Unless you read the current threads on MN where they absolutely discriminate against girls and need banning immediately.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3476187-to-think-secondary-schools-should-not-have-unisex-toilets
Schools seemingly can't win no matter what they do

So glad my school wasn't like this. They let you go whenever you wanted. Obviously if you took advantage they would say no eventually, but that was mainly the boys that did that that weren't interested in learning. Actually I think it was exclusively them.

Poor girl, that's fucking awful.teachers should have more bloody sense but then there was a thread the other day about a reception child who had an accident and was made to sit in his own shit for an hour until his mother could come and change him, none of the staff were prepared to do it. He was 4! So it really isn't surprising that this is still going on.