AIBU to be angry that this is still happening!

[CosmicCanary]

Bristol News

I know this is not the only girl this has happened to. I know there will be many many girls who have suffered the same humiliation in school just today.

I was one of them many years ago.
So many times i bled through my pad in lesson but I knew asking to go to the toilet in would be met with a NO so i didn't bother. It was a humiliation in its self for the whole class to know you needed the loo. Such a public audience for an other wise private act.

I have already told my DDs should they need the toilet they must ask but if refused walk out of lesson if they absolutely cannot wait and I will deal with school.
They will not suffer the humiliation and shame of leaving blood on a school chair as I did.

It's just a shame that all the students have to be punished

I remember coming on in the middle of a computer lesson. I asked the old guy teacher and I must have looked so pale and anxious he said yes and he was NOT one for that sort of thing. How could I have waited? You get that rush/gush feeling then clamp your legs together and waddle like a penguin to the loo! Just because others haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Children will always take the piss with teachers but I would rather the children went and I was fooled for letting them than I said no and they were humiliated.

I also wet myself at the end of school aged 7 when the teacher wanted me to wait till school was finished. I asked twice so she must have known I couldn't wait but then I wet myself and she said to my mum 'she should have said' but my 7 year old self thought I had!

NUT guidelines are not in favour of toilet bans in lesson.
It appears their focus is maintaining the health and dignity of pupils while recognising some will misbehave.

The some schools have knife arches is a red herring and not the norm. I would think those that do are special provision schools and the children who attended have very challenging behaviour.
I have experience of 4 such schools and even they did not have a complete ban on toilet access.

It was me who mentioned the school with the knife arch. Not a special provision school, just a comp in a grammar school area.

No school has a complete ban on toilet access. Who has said that

A complete ban in lessons obviously. You yourself has said you do not allow children to go. The school in the OP also has such a ban unless a toilet pass has been provided.

Anew and I doubt very much that is the norm for schools if not special provision.

I think it’s pretty shit that anyone is refused the toilet.
I get it, kids use it as a cop out for bunking blah blah but I don’t have to ask to go to the bloody toilet and I’m a situation where I have to excuse myself to go, if someone were to say no I would walk out regardless. People don’t need to justify their toilet habits and actually, holding onto a wee is pretty bad for you... even for a hour

Too right LordVoldetort.
I'd never heard about knife arches before this thread. Am certainly getting an education on here and it makes me shudder!

If I had time over again I think would home educate my children.

No not the norm but not as uncommon as you might think for a city school in a deprived area.

I think everyone should be concerned about what is happening around behaviour in lots of schools.

It's quite frightening when you actually hear what teachers and well behaved students are having to put up with every day.

There is something wrong with an adult that makes another person sit in their own bodily waste.

userschmoozer

I think that you are slightly over exaggerating. I doubt any teacher anywhere actually wants a student to wet or mess themselves.

I live in London. Our tube trains don't have toilets. Most of the stations outside Central London don't have toilets. Loads of children here get the tube to and from school. They seem to be able to cope with an hour or more on the train without the toilet, as do the other passengers.

You keep going on about the tube and adults
We are talking about children in school that have toilets. The two are not comparable.

Both my teaching practice schools were in outer London. Zone 4. One was considered very 'rough' by the course leaders who sent me there as they thought I needed to be shocked out of my grammar school girl bubble. However, it was a well run school with a discipline system that was followed by all staff. Children were allowed to go to the toilet in lessons. But they rarely asked.

You keep going on about the tube and adults
No I'm talking about school children on the tube. How can they chance an hour on the tube with no toilets either on the train or the platform? Maybe they plan for it and go beforehand, which they could do at school.

Your answer is to let everyone go and then deal with any bad behaviour when it happens. Which is fine in theory. But I bet you wouldn't be very understanding if it was your child who got beaten up in the toilets, even if the attacker was excluded, or your child's school was shut until the toilets could be repaired after vandalism? Surely you would be asking why it was allowed to happen in the 1st place? And if you wouldn't I guarantee many parents would and the school would be accused of endangering the pupils and not keeping them safe.

Can you not see how they need to balance this?

No I'm talking about school children on the tube. How can they chance an hour on the tube with no toilets either on the train or the platform? Maybe they plan for it and go beforehand, which they could do at school.

How do you know all of those children are accident free?
How do you know that some girls may not have needed to return home due to leaking? Or some lad as had to pee in a bush or door way?
You dont know at all that everyone of those children manage.
I gave a time line in an earlier post of my DDs toilet opportunities while at school. The length of time inbetween can be a lot longer that an hours tube ride.

But I bet you wouldn't be very understanding if it was your child who got beaten up in the toilets, even if the attacker was excluded, or your child's school was shut until the toilets could be repaired after vandalism?

I am intelligent enough to blame the attacker or vandal and not demand school punish all pupils including my child by a blanket bat on toilet access.
I would demand that school manage such violent students appropriately but that does not mean punishing all students. I dont know why you think it should

Can you not see how they need to balance this?

There is no balance with a blanket ban.

In my school, in Scotland, you use your discretion for letting pupils use the toilet ( serial offenders/ friendship groups who may prearrange the meeting etc) but otherwise pupils are allowed to go with a toilet slip: these are in every classroom, you fill out their name/ class/ time/ teacher name and they must hand the slip into the office upon return from the toilet. They are collected by admin staff and any patterns/ chancing it can be identified.

As a result very, very few pupils abuse it. We also have the charity ' Hey girls' pads ( day/ night/ reusable packs) in every single girls' toilet with wipes for clean up and single pack, cotton pants ( in brown, paper bags marked in sizes), these are provided by school fund. There are also tights available from pastoral care teachers if necessary. It is excellent and works.

I would demand that school manage such violent students appropriately but that does not mean punishing all students. I dont know why you think it should

The students, if identified, would be punished. It wouldn't help the victim would it?

And behaviour problems aren't so simple to solve.

Schools in my area struggle to attract staff - it's expensive to live here, most of the schools are RI, a couple repeatedly special measures, chain academies taking over (1 in particular staff don't like working for). Schools end up using supply teachers or have very high turnover of staff. In turn this exacerbates behaviour problems.

Nationally teaching is in crisis. Lots of schools favour employing NQTs or fairly new teachers because they are cheaper so you lose experienced staff. We have only PRU here with minimal places. Excluded children just end up being sent on to another school and so the problems begin again.

1 school here has been in special measures 3 times. Every time HT is replaced. IEB put in place. New governors eventually. 2 different academies have taken over. Still results of 5 A* - C are below 40%. Can you imagine what behaviour is like in that school?

It is a mess. As a consequence some schools are just doing disaster management.

I hope your dd doesn't experience this. I hope her school doesn't experience this. But many schools are.

They aren't full of teachers who hate children. They aren't trying to abuse human rights. They are trying, as best they can, to manage challenging behaviour.

I don't know how this is managed. I don't think it's as simple as deal with the behaviour once it's happened, because schools do deal with it and then it happens again. Some students, and their parents, simply don't care if they get excluded so there is no deterrent.

I don't agree with restricting toilet access but at the same time I don't know how they can manage it.

The students, if identified, would be punished. It wouldn't help the victim would it?

Why wouldnt it?
Bullies will bully at every opportunity. Bullying still happens in schools with limited toilet access so clearly banning toilet use during lessons is not stopping it is it?

The rest of your post just highlights the poor management and funding of some schools. It does not make a case for a ban on toilet access during lessons.

Teachers have already said how their school manage and it works.
Notes in planners/record card kept and handed in. This allows the pupils to be monitored and any patterns in behaviour can be addressed accordingly.

I dont think these measures are a 100% success but at least it means the incidents can be dramatically reduced without punishing all students.

The students aren't always asking for a genuine reason though are they?
99% of the time they are.

As we can see they want to go for a walk, meet friends, smoke, cause trouble and so forth, as well as some who want the toilet.
That is very rare that they do. The vast overwhelming majority do so because they need to go to the toilet.

I have already provided proof that to deny a human being access to the toilet (based on 1%) is inhumane and breaches humanitarian guidelines, especially with rights to the child. It is simply not normal or rational for anyone to deny a child access to the toilet, and imo you'd have to be a very very low person to think it is ok to do that.

This site has a lot of interesting information, and even the National Union of Teachers believe that: ^"“Having set times for access to the toilet can cause “I’ll go just in case” practices which means the bladder doesn’t get used to holding on until it’s full. Over time, the bladder capacity can reduce, increasing the need to visit the toilet more frequently.

“At the same time, the amount of fluid a child can drink before needing to go to the toilet is reduced. This results in a vicious circle. A child may consciously or unconsciously ration their fluid intake, or avoid drinking altogether, if they fear not being able to go to the toilet when they need to.”

In addition, there is some evidence that older pupils with continence problems are reluctant to notify their school of their need for more frequent toilet visits due to perceived stigma and fear of bullying.

A recent study concluded that young people with continence problems require unrestricted access to private and adequate toilet facilities during the school day.

The study outlines there is a need for inclusive toilet access policies and improved toilet standards in schools, and notes that children with continence issues are at greater risk of not achieving their full academic potential."^

and

^"Children’s rights are protected by the UN Convention on the Rights of Children.

Article 3 specifies that the best interests of the child shall be a primary consideration and that institutions responsible for children’s care shall conform with the standards established by competent authorities, particularly in the areas of safety and health.

In addition, Article 28, governing the provision of education, specifically states that “parties shall take all appropriate measures to ensure that school discipline is administered in a manner consistent with the child’s human dignity and in conformity with the present Convention.”

Blanket Policies Could Leave Schools Open to Litigation

A blanket disciplinary policy of only allowing toilet access at set times or allowing teachers, carte blanche, to refuse toilet access cannot be said to be in the best interests of the child.

There is potential for long term damage to the bladder as well as risk of anxieties of trying to either conform to the policy, or having to inform the school of any continence problems.

It is also directly at odds with the government’s advice to schools on safeguarding issues, which states that safeguarding children’s welfare includes preventing impairment of children’s health or development.

Further, the risk of ‘accidents’ by children of any age, or ‘leaking’ by menstruating pupils seems inconsistent with maintaining the child’s dignity.

Of course schools are quite entitled to set rules and policies regarding access to toilets, and, as previously stated, they have a legal right to take steps to manage classroom disruption.

However blanket restrictions applied to the general school population are in danger of jeopardising the maintenance of children’ best interests, as required by the UN Convention on the Rights of Children, and may leave schools and local authorities vulnerable to the possibility of litigation."^

In other words, a parent at any time, can test the law based on the charter of the UN Rights of the Child.
rightsinfo.org/do-school-toilet-policies-breach-pupils-rights/

^"In my work as an educational consultant, I have visited many schools all over the world. I have observed, in both traditional and alternative schools, that children’s basic rights are often ignored. I believe that all human beings, no matter how old they are, must be granted the right to take care of their bodily needs. The child’s body and whole organism are by nature determined to move and learn in specific ways. When we adults refuse to collaborate with the child’s natural development, we create immense, unnecessary suffering. Even seemingly harmless experiences such as occasionally being denied the right to go to the toilet when needed, can leave trauma and health problems that are carried into adulthood.

The “school model” itself will not protect children from abuse. Every single teacher and parent needs to take responsibility for his or her own well-being and for the child’s well-being.

The UN’s Convention on the Rights of the Child (pdf) outlines very basic human rights (e.g., to protect children against child labor and violence and secure their right for education). My list of children’s rights starts from the assumption that children are in an educational environment. I hope this list of rights will raise awareness for the subtle abuse and hidden suffering that occur in schools every day. If we allow children to feel more comfortable in learning environments, we adults will also feel better and happier! Instead of having to worry about being thirsty or feeling emotionally drained, children will consistently have their needs met. Children will gain the opportunity to experience true, authentic learning with joy. This leads to a lifelong love of learning.

All children have the right to do the following:
1.Go to the toilet when needed.
2.Have drinking water available.
3.Move the body when needed.
4.Learn to take care of personal needs.
5.Learn and process emotions through play.
6.Learn through exploration, trial, and error.
7.Make mistakes and not be judged or shamed.
8.Learn at a personal pace.
9.Fully understand a subject before being tested.
10.Not to be tested involuntarily. Instead, share knowledge by free choice, only when ready to receive feedback on learning progress.
11.Not to be punished. Instead, children should be respectfully encouraged to become more self-disciplined.
12.Not to be compared with peers. Instead, acknowledged as an individual student with individual talents, opinions, and characteristics.
13.Not to be judged for being different."^

www.educationrevolution.org/blog/the-rights-of-children-in-school/

Salem i read the same NUT guidelines and denying reasonable access to the toilet is not encouraged and should not be used as a behaviour management tool.

It outlined the the negative impacts and health issues of such policies and at no point is restricting toilet access deemed good practice.

SaIemTheBlackCat

Quite apart from anything else virtually none of the list of 13 "rights" happen.

And you state that "99% of the time the requests are genuine". Can you link me to where you got that figure from. I'd be interested to read the study.

Furthermore the UN rights you quoted state that children have the right to be kept safe and that is the responsibility of the institution. They are applying that to toilets. Schools can quite easily say they are keeping children safe by not allowing them to wander around unsupervised.

They are also against a blanket ban which isnt what we are talking about. We are talking about a strict policy and supervised access ie getting a key from the office.

Maybe parents could start taking their responsibilities a bit more seriously and raise children who respect people and property and are a bit more respectful of discipline. Then there would be no need to do any of this.