AIBU to be angry that this is still happening!

[CosmicCanary]

Bristol News

I know this is not the only girl this has happened to. I know there will be many many girls who have suffered the same humiliation in school just today.

I was one of them many years ago.
So many times i bled through my pad in lesson but I knew asking to go to the toilet in would be met with a NO so i didn't bother. It was a humiliation in its self for the whole class to know you needed the loo. Such a public audience for an other wise private act.

I have already told my DDs should they need the toilet they must ask but if refused walk out of lesson if they absolutely cannot wait and I will deal with school.
They will not suffer the humiliation and shame of leaving blood on a school chair as I did.

Am loving the

Right not to be tested involuntarily
Right not to be punished
Right to move the body when needed
Right to learn at own pace.
Right to fully understand a subject before being tested

Fab. That will work out well then. Forgive me if I take that list with a pinch of salt

*I truly understand the reaction that refusing a child the toilet seems draconian.

But honestly, listen to what schools are telling you about behaviour in the classroom. It isn't just odd poorly performing teachers - it is endemic. There is a huge crisis happening in schools with regards to disruptive behaviour.*

Weetabix, why is it that many countries around the world, including mine, allow children to go to the toilet at school when needed, with little if any issues and no disruption. Yet the UK appears to have schools that have absolutely no control whatsoever over students, fights, students hiding from class etc etc? I have never, ever been to, worked in (because I've worked in schools) or even heard of such behaviour here. America, Denmark, Australia - they don't have the issues that the UK seems to. What I am hearing about the state of schools in the UK - and I find it extremely hard to believe, is not something I can even comprehend, imagine or believe. It simply is not like that at all where I am. I think what you have is a school that has lost it's ability to maintain order. The issue isn't the students asking to go to the toilet, the issue is that there seems to be absolutely no order, no discipline and not stability over there. Other countries manage just fine and do not have what you describe. For one, schools are busy places and there are always teachers or staff walking past in corridors or outside. Fire alarms in toilets, so, obviously, no smoking. Fellow students in class barely notice anyone asking to go and don't even care or notice if they do, so no disruption. I am aghast at what I am reading from you, your education system as a whole has clearly lost control, the toilet issue is a symptom, but not a cause.

We are talking about a strict policy and supervised access ie getting a key from the office.
You don't think this is absolutely ridiculous? If they really need to go they have to go to the office, get a key? Are you really truly serious? Wow, that is beyond ridiculous. I have never heard of a school locking up the toilets in between breaks. That makes no sense. And, even if they did, surely a teacher should have a key, so as to minimise wasting time by going to the office, to the toilet, back to the office, then back to the classroom.

It seems to get more absurd the more I read. Btw our school janitors were busy with prepping ovals, doing fix-it work around the school, they didn't have the time to go around individually locking all the toilet blocks before break 1, then unlocking for break, then locking again after break, to unlock again for break 2, then lock again until school let out to unlock, then lock again.

Please tell me your janitors don't waste their time spending their work day at school locking, unlocking, locking, unlocking, locking, unlocking and finally locking? Please tell me you are joking. Please?

Weetabixandshreddies Tue 15-Jan-19 18:10:30
@recklessruby maybe you'd like to read nos123 to see that not all girls quietly leave a lesson rather than draw attention to the fact they are having a period.

Did you read nos123's post? The girl said that BECAUSE she needed to go! If she was told yes, obviously she wouldn't have needed to press the point, would she? smdh

Salem - I have worked in 4 schools of different types in different areas none had rules over toilet access like this.

*There would be no need to give them an ear full i would listen while they explained the very good reason they allowed my child to wee themself or leak blood through their clothing. I am afraid simply saying some children lie therefore nobody is entitled to dignity will not cut it.

I send my children to school to be educated not to be humiliated.*

Well said CosmicCanary! I cannot believe it is 2019, some of these posters sound like some barbarian out of the 1800s. I have to convince myself to believe they are playing devil's advocate for the sake of an argument, because I just cannot believe an actual person would think like they do. It borders on sociopathic to me. And as you said, if a teacher said no to my child needing to go to the toilet (not that it would happen because thankfully it doesn't where I am), they would be darn sure to never, ever make the same mistake again. I'd tell them I'd even go to A Current Affair (a general interest weekly news-type programme) and expose the school in the media. It simply would never happen again, that I can tell you.

Thank you @GrammarTeacher , that does make me feel a lot better to know it isn't nation-wide at least.

Grammer is correct it is not nation wide.

What has become clear from the UK teachers that have posted is that it is the individual school policy and not something promoted by the NUT or Ofstead.
The main reason for the toilet ban appears to be bad behaviour, class disruption, children using it as an excuse.
All that proves to me us that the school have a problem and instead of tackling the badly behaved pupils they are punishing all pupils as its easier. To me that is nothing but laziness and poor management by the school.

Maybe parents could start taking their responsibilities a bit more seriously and raise children who respect people and property and are a bit more respectful of discipline.

I do raise my children this way. So because some dont my child should be punished?
Why do you believe in punishing all of the pupils?

We were specifically told in training to avoid whole class punishments. They don't work.

SaIemTheBlackCat

GrammarTeacher has worked in 4 schools in the UK. They may not have come across this behaviour but unfortunately it is common. Some schools worse than others.

We have a crisis in teacher recruitment and retention. Why would that be if our schools are all fantastic?

And our caretakers do have to lock toilets, lock gates, do maintenance etc.

is correct it is not nation wide.
It is nationwide. It isn't widespread in every school.

Show me an area of the country that doesn't have this problem?

Having had a dd at school refused going to the toilet and ending up with a UTI it’s not great, I went to the school and explained if they kept doing it I would have to keep her off school for her own health and well being. Fortunately the school took a different stance and my dd was able to stay at school without further problems

Why do you believe in punishing all of the pupils?

I don't believe in punishing all the pupils.

Schools have to have rules.

Many of those rules place restrictions on pupils who aren't deserving of it. That's just part of being an individual in an organisation.

My children's secondary school banned them from bringing phones to school because some children had been misusing them - using them in class, filming staff or students, cyber bullying at school etc.

My children never did that. Their phones were in their bags but useful travelling to and from school on public transport if they were delayed or needing picking up. But we had to abide by the ban.

Why is that fair? My children weren't being naughty. Banning their phones made them vulnerable travelling to and from school if they missed the school bus and had to walk home.

Students used to be allowed of campus at lunchtime until some started causing issues so then no one was allowed to leave. Why was that fair?

Used to be able to take children out of school for 10 days. We never did it. Until one time when we really needed to take them out for 2 days but by then it had been banned due to other parents abusing it. Why is that fair?

Because usually rules are put in place to control the selfish, dangerous, thoughtless behaviour of others.

You can't just write these problems off as lazy leadership. Maybe that is the case in some schools but in many it is a reflection of the area that they are in. Not all children and not all schools are like yours.

@ivykaty44 "Having had a dd at school refused going to the toilet and ending up with a UTI"

I feel for your daughter. That is one of the health risks associated with denying a child the right to go to the toilet. Which the health profession use as an argument against denying a child the use of a toilet when they need it. I would make sure the school knew that if child got a UTI for being denied the ability to go to the toilet, I would sue them, and the teacher personally. My family's GP would back me up with documentation if needed. The school and the teacher in charge would definitely pay damages.

"laziness" hollow laugh.
Ok I'm going to tackle the "other countries" thing.
Other countries. As far as I'm aware ALL other countries give their teachers much more contact free time for planning, marking, CPD etc, and much less contact time in the paid hours.
As far as I'm aware ALL other countries do not expect so many unpaid hours from their teachers.
MOST other countries hold teachers and the teaching profession in higher esteem, and so behaviour is better as students respect their teachers' authority.
I hate refusing permission to go to the loo and very rarely refuse point blank. I often get them to ask again in X minutes as that eliminates the pre arranged meetings visits.
If a lot of you saw what teachers really have to deal with I think it would really open your eyes a bit. As I said I am dreading going back. Around here 4 of the schools I did supply in prior to my last child offered me a permanent post as they had unfilled teacher positions. All had teachers with no maths qualifications teaching maths.
There is a huge teacher retention problem in this country. There is a vicious circle of poor behaviour, over zealous clamp downs (like toilet bans), backlash, lack of parental respect, leading to more poor behaviour, staff leaving with stress, supply teachers, more poor behaviour .... It goes on.
I believe the solution is to dramatically increase paid PPA and CPD time. But that means money which will never happen

@Weetabixandshreddies None of those on your list are health/life-threatening (except perhaps travelling home after missing a bus in which case the student would be able to make a call from the school office), denying a child the right to attend to bodily functions is dangerous and detrimental to their health. Obviously your schools over there are badly mismanaged. However as I said earlier, refusing to allow a child to go to the toilet is a symptom of the disastrous system you have over there. It is not a cause. And if Janitors are spending their days running to toilet blocks every hour at school locking, unlocking, locking, unlocking, locking, unlocking and finally locking then clearly no work is accomplished, no maintenance done, which would imo, add to the atmosphere of chaos and dysfunction.
It is your school system that is in a terrible and disgraceful mess. Allowing students to attend to bodily functions isn't going to add much more chaos and dysfunction to a school.

Salem a letter to the head and governors advising that I would be forced to take appropriate action if the situation continued did magically change the situation. I wasn’t rude or threatening, but distressed and saddened by the schools Original stance

@Anewoneforme That sounds absolutely horrific, and hard to believe all of that would happen in a developed nation. Don't have like a Teacher's/Education Union over there? What you are describing is absolutely incomprehensible, inconceivable even. I cannot understand how any country like the UK would stand for that, even one quarter of that, and why if you have any unions in the UK, are the unions not doing anything about?

This article explains it quite well. It's only about attacks on staff though, not other pupils and not "low level behaviour issues".

8000 incidents in a year though? Glad some of you think there is no problem

Violence against teachers: secondary staff three times more likely to be attacked than average
By Helen Ward

06 March 2018
News article image
There were an average of 8,000 attacks on school staff annually over a six-year-period, national survey shows

Secondary school staff are three times more likely to face violence at work than the average UK worker.

Statistics from the Labour Force Survey, obtained by BBC Radio 5 Live, reveal that over the period of six years to 2015-16, there were an average of 8,000 attacks on school staff per year.

The survey, carried out by the Office for National Statistics, involved asking 40,000 households about injuries sustained after being assaulted at work.

Kevin Courtney, general secretary of the NEU teaching union, said: "This is a real issue for teachers and it must not be ignored. The problems of pupil behaviour are always raised by teachers as one of the reasons why they leave the profession.

"We have to note that across recent years, the cuts to local authorities have meant that we have lost many support services which have been aiding children in schools. Behavioural specialists who used to help in schools: gone. Teams like that have disappeared. And that’s part of this issue as well.

Teachers 'have lost support services'
“So you can solve the problem by good behavioural policies, but you need resources. You need teachers who are not feeling stressed and you need resources to help these children.”

The Department for Education spokesman said: “This government has taken decisive action to put teachers back in charge of the classroom by giving them the powers they need to tackle poor behaviour and discipline, and has scrapped ‘no touch’ rules that stopped teachers removing disruptive pupils from classrooms.

“Teachers and school staff have a right to feel safe while doing their jobs, and violence towards them is completely unacceptable.”

A survey of Unison members in 2016 found that teaching assistants faced a “barrage” of verbal threats and abuse, with more than half of the 14,500 people surveyed saying they had experienced physical violence in the past year.

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SaIemTheBlackCat

You clearly have no idea. There are teaching unions. Teachers have been on strike but nothing changed.

And our caretakers really don't do much maintenance - some basic stuff but most things are done by external trades men. How long does it take to lock and unlock 4 doors?

except perhaps travelling home after missing a bus in which case the student would be able to make a call from the school office

Oh you are funny.

And I wasn't pointing out rules that are health/life threatening. I was pointing out rules that adversely affected my children when they were not guilty of bad behaviour.

And really I think you are being a bit melodramatic. Being refused the toilet or being asked to wait will not adversely affect your health. We experienced turbulence on a plane once. 4 hours we were confined to our seats. I was desperate for the loo for 2 of those hours. Miraculously I survived.

@Weetabixandshreddies No, I don't know, which is why I asked. And if nothing changed after a strike, then it didn't last long enough or the unions didn't fight strong enough.

If there 4 or so blocks and you have to circle the school to unlock then lock in an hour, that is a LOT of time wasted. I think most reasonable people can understand that.

Salem there have been various strikes but they just alienate parents more as they have to find childcare for the strike period. And call teachers just whingers who don't know what real work is. You see that here on MN all the time, but if teaching is so cushy and well paid, why is everyone leaving the profession in droves causing the government to pay huge bursaries for training (yet fail to tackle retentiont?)!
Also the unions have been handicapped in when that strike action is now permitted.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/teachers-england-longest-hour-pay-schools-education-a7353496.html