to think this is creepy as fuck?

[timetostepup]

This is outside a talk by a Canadian Feminist.

A man with a megaphone, getting a crowd of women and men to chant, over and over, "transwomen are women! Sex work is work!"

Why only transwomen, not transmen?

What has prostitution got to do with gender identity - what's the link?

I can't see one - other than both are about people born men being able to do what they want, and fuck what women want, is that it?

This really gives me the chills, looks like something you might see in the Handmaid's Tale.

twitter.com/Tarankparmar/status/1083584168280424448

YABU

The current debate between some feminists and some trans people does focus on trans women so it’s not odd that the protesters would focus on that.

Some feminists who have concerns about trans women’s rights also think that all sex work is exploitative of women, so again the connection is fairly evident.

I don’t get the creepiness and Handmaideness, it’s some people protesting, peacefully by what I saw but admitedly i did not see all of it.

Yanbu. Misogynist with his own agenda, happy to erase the meaning of the word 'woman', women's rights and have his feelings around people being bought as objects validated.

You don't think chanting "transwomen are women" and "sex work is work" together is creepy? Why on earth not?

Why are these people shouting "sex work is work?"

Don't you think men encouraging women (who are massively exploited through sex work) to shout "sex work is work" is creepy? Why not?

You don't have to believe that all selling of sex is by nature exploitative, to recognise that most of it is. Women are trafficked and sold for sex against their will in this country. All women who sell their bodies for sex are at risk of PTSD - even if they didn't think it was damaging at the time.

Prostitution is higher risk for PTSD than being a soldier.

I'm very tempted to get a megaphone myself, go into the streets and see if I can get people to chant Elephants are fish! Horses are reptiles! Lizards are cheetahs! Poor people are better off than Billionaires! Nigel Farage is a fine example of a man! It makes about as much sense.

I think you're being a bit odd about it. What do you mean by "men encouraging women to chant". Surely those women weren't just randomly passing and got forced into chanting they must have decided to be part of his protest.

I can see why he'd chant those two lines because feminists focus their attention on transwomen not transmen and the other point he takes issue with is the feminist stance on sex work.

Not very feminist to believe all of those women are helpless and brainwashed rather than chanting their own opinions of their own accord, whether you agree with those opinions or not.

Protesters chant slogans. That's a reasonable part of peaceful protest. 'Trans women are women' would be getting chanted because feminists critical of trans people are mostly concerned with keeping trans women out of women's spaces; 'sex work is work' is because some feminists are critical of sex work and wilfully ignorant about sex workers.

Personally I do think trans women are women. I also think prostitution could, in principle, be non-exploitative and a woman’s choice (I don’t like anyone telling women what they can and cannot do and this includes prostitution), but in practice it is almost always a coerced and exploitative choice.

I definitely think women can choose to demonstrate about these things without having been brainwashed by a man.

Booboostwo. Why do you think that transwomen are women? What makes them women?

Personally I do think trans women are women

Excellent.

Can you explain how a man becomes a woman please. What happens and at what point do you accept that a change has happened enough to think they are women?

I think any protest, as long as it is peaceful, is an important part of democratic free speech. There are plenty of things I disagree with but respect protesters rights to say it.

“Personally I do think trans women are women”
Please can you explain the reasoning that brought you to this belief?

Booboostwo
Personally I do think trans women are women.

I think the moon is made of blue cheese.

YADNBU

Makes me think of the dystopian future someone mentioned on here once before, where women risk losing benefits if they refuse sex work "because it's work"

Disgusting.

Oh and also.. women don't have penises. Common sense.

It’s difficult to have a civilized discussion on this but fuck it, here is what I think.

I think that biologically sex attribution is complex and involves a number of factors including external and internal sexual organs, genetics, epigeneticw, endocrinology and brain chemistry. I think these factors can come together in complex ways that are not captured in their entirety by binary sexual categories (here I would typically mention the variety of intersex possibilities but i find that in these discussions i fail to explain that I am NOT saying that trans people are intersex, rather that intersex people are evidence against binary sexes and therefore leave the door open for the possibility of other ways of being female/male like trans).

Socially and culturally I dislike fixed gender attributions and think that we’d all be better served by letting people identify and express their identity as they like.

Morally I think that trans people have had an extremely tough time, both from the medical profession and social prejudice, and, on compassionate grounds, we should respect their identity choices.

Today in totally shocking things, man who approve of prostitution leads protest against feminist.

I think that biologically sex attribution is complex and involves a number of factors including external and internal sexual organs, genetics, epigeneticw, endocrinology and brain chemistry. I think these factors can come together in complex ways that are not captured in their entirety by binary sexual categories (here I would typically mention the variety of intersex possibilities but i find that in these discussions i fail to explain that I am NOT saying that trans people are intersex, rather that intersex people are evidence against binary sexes and therefore leave the door open for the possibility of other ways of being female/male like trans).

Intersex is the proof of binary sex, hence the term 'inter'.

So how do you think men turn into women, and at what point have they changed enough for you to accept them as women?

Morally I think women who have been raped and abused have had a tough time so we should respect their need for sex segregated places. If you prioritise the needs of transwomen over women then you are clearly and categorically saying that transwomen and women are different. If you truly thought transwomen are women then you wouldn't do this.

‘Inter’ etymologically mean summer ‘between’ which is the usage in intersex, so not proof of binary but the opposite, the term means between sexes.

Whenever they identify as women, same as women who identify as men. I don’t ask people to show me their genitals, DNA information, internal scans or endocrinological reports.

Boohoo: you’d be hard pressed to find many radical feminists who don’t agree that gender is regressive. That is why we oppose the idea that TWAW.

I get what you’re saying about sex, but it is your view and not fact. Scientifically, I’m afraid it’s mumbo jumbo, no matter how much you might with it to be true.

Whenever they identify as women, same as women who identify as men. I don’t ask people to show me their genitals, DNA information, internal scans or endocrinological reports.

Nobody is asking you to.

There are two types of gametes that humans can have.

What makes you think a man, who has fathered children, so evidently has produces one type of gamete, suddenly become someone who can produce another type of gamete? How does this happen, and at what point do you think that they can produce this other type of gamete?

Also, YANBU to the OP.

birdsdestiny if you are referring to self-ID legislation in the U.K. both current and proposed legislation includes exceptions that would cover women’s refuges, so I think this is a non issue. As for the needs of trans women I am not sure what you mean, in a situation where a trans woman was applying for a post in a women’s refuge it would not be her needs that we would consider but her rights. Employment rights are ot absolute, they can be reasonably curtailed in light of other people’s rights and needs as in this situation.

Because most of the concerns raised by the GC are about trans women.
Because many people who are vocal about their concerns about trans issues are also vocal about not seeing sex work as work but as exploitation.
But I think you knew this very well before you posted.