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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think this is creepy as fuck?

140 replies

timetostepup · 12/01/2019 12:30

This is outside a talk by a Canadian Feminist.

A man with a megaphone, getting a crowd of women and men to chant, over and over, "transwomen are women! Sex work is work!"

Why only transwomen, not transmen?

What has prostitution got to do with gender identity - what's the link?

I can't see one - other than both are about people born men being able to do what they want, and fuck what women want, is that it?

This really gives me the chills, looks like something you might see in the Handmaid's Tale.

twitter.com/Tarankparmar/status/1083584168280424448

OP posts:
papayasareyum · 12/01/2019 15:45

gender critical feminists are not transphobic. They debate using science, biology and reality. TRA's (and their supporters) usually don't attempt to discuss the issues and aren't bothered about the affect on women, just their own rights. When a discussion occurs, almost on every single occasion it disintegrates into shouts of TRANSPHOBIA and #no debate. It's almost as though they have no argument to counter what the gender critical people are saying, so rather than attempting to fight science, biology and reality, they cry TRANSPHOBIA ad infinitum.

NyNameIsTaken · 12/01/2019 15:46

Transgenderism isn’t about changing sex. Anti-trans activists peddle this myth because it distorts the issue and gives them a pseudo-scientific justification for what is, at the end of the day, just a typical and mundane prejudice.

If it isn't about changing sex then why are sex segregated things like sports, prisons, changing rooms etc etc at risk and have males demanding access to them because they feel like women. If it's not about changing sex then males would be using sex segregated spaces and services with other males regardless of identify.

sackrifice · 12/01/2019 15:50

Transgenderism isn’t about changing sex. Anti-trans activists peddle this myth because it distorts the issue and gives them a pseudo-scientific justification for what is, at the end of the day, just a typical and mundane prejudice

Lol.

'blah blah meanies blah blah prejudiced bigots blah blah pseudo science blah blah flounce'

SirVixofVixHall · 12/01/2019 15:51

And if it isn’t about changing sex then tell me why a certain ex women’s officer is stating that their sex is “female” .

SirVixofVixHall · 12/01/2019 15:56

Also what on earth are “anti trans actvists “ because I have never come across one, and I am heartily sick of women who want to keep their single sex spaces being labelled “anti trans” , what with it being “nothing to do with chnging sex” you’d think our single sex spaces wouldn’t be an issue, but strangely they are. 🙄
And don’t get me started on “anti sex work”.

SirVixofVixHall · 12/01/2019 15:57

Also heartily sick of women selling other women down the river.

OrchidInTheSun · 12/01/2019 15:57

Why do you keep talking about intersex people? What have they got to do with trans?

ReanimatedSGB · 12/01/2019 16:01

You can't necessarily tell what sex or gender someone else is at a glance. Guess what: it doesn't fucking matter.
On a cold, wet day, are you 100% sure of the sex/gender of every individual bundled up in dark-coloured rain gear, trainers and track pants or jeans who you see waiting at the bus stop or coming out of a shop? Do you have to follow them and have a good look, just to be sure? If you are in a busy workplace with uniform-wearing staff, do you feel the need to check and assess every one of them as to whether they are male or female? Do you actually head-count in pubs or restaurants as to how many males, females or 'indeterminate' people might be in there?

As well as spite, wilful ignorance and rank bullshit on both sides of this discussion, there is a lot of ridiculous scaremongering. But then, a lot of this is to do with the pot being constantly stirred by those whos main motivation is for the situation to remain as it is: the default 'human with full rights' is a man, whereas women, trans and non-binary people must compete for a finite share of rights which men choose to give them.

donquixotedelamancha · 12/01/2019 16:03

biologically sex attribution is complex and involves a number of factors including external and internal sexual organs, genetics, epigeneticw, endocrinology and brain chemistry. I think these factors can come together in complex ways that are not captured in their entirety by binary sexual categories

Saying that epigenetics means we can't tell whether someone is male or female is a like saying you can't tell the difference between a fire engine and a motorbike if they are both painted red.

Biological sex has meaning- it relates to the ability to produce one of two gametes. It's fundamental to complex life- even plants have sex. In mammals it's determined at conception by two chromosomes. Just because (very, very rarely) there can be a genetic disorder or a congenital problem with development which affects someone's sex characteristics does not make the word sex meaningless.

Socially and culturally I dislike fixed gender attributions and think that we’d all be better served by letting people identify and express their identity as they like.

I completely agree, but that's a totally different issue. People should be free to wear what they like. That doesn't mean we should all redefine words and ignore material reality.

sackrifice · 12/01/2019 16:06

As well as spite, wilful ignorance and rank bullshit on both sides of this discussion, there is a lot of ridiculous scaremongering. But then, a lot of this is to do with the pot being constantly stirred by those whos main motivation is for the situation to remain as it is: the default 'human with full rights' is a man, whereas women, trans and non-binary people must compete for a finite share of rights which men choose to give them

You think it is spite and ignorance to be worried about women and girls and their rights to say 'no'?

So you heartily approve of rapists in women's prisons? Wow, ain't you a peach?

FuzzyShadowChatter · 12/01/2019 16:16

@Booboosttwo How would you identify true gonadal intersex people who have both ovarian and testicular tissue?

To my knowledge, genetically male with a female phenotype, so most would see them and almost all of them identify as women as phenotype is what humans usually identify each other and ourselves on.

Gonadal dysgenesis, which is what you're describing, whether complete or mixed/partial, is male-only. Without one of the many gene mutations that cause it, a person would develop, produce sperm and have male phenotype like any other guy. Those with these conditions don't produce any gametes so having both tissues doesn't change the one or the other issue. I'd recommend this very thorough article if you'd like information to actually learn about and stop using intersex people as a gotcha. People who actually know about intersex conditions already know how such a person would be identified and most likely to identify because it's been pretty researched into the ground.

One intersex group has made one public statement on their views on trans people, they do not represent all intersex people and even if they did stating that you do not wish your condition to be referred to in an rational argument doesn’t mean your condition becomes irrelevant to that argument.

Okay, intersex isn't one condition or a 'variety of possibilities'. It's an umbrella term for diagnosed conditions related to sex development. There are cultural factors as well that put some in similar situations - for example, there are some who have faced genital mutilation on their clitoris due to a natural variance without any medical condition, and intersex advocacy groups fight against that as well. That it means 'between' due to discussions about us prior to knowing about genetics and things matters about as much as the root words for homophobia meaning fear of same, we know culturally that's not what people are talking about and historically that term is significant as it was used to mock treating same sex attraction as a mental disorder.

Intersex people are female or male, there is no third gamete or phenotype, it's better to expand the definition and information to include based on current medical information than to push away or use to back up other people who have very different concerns. Intersex conditions have nothing to do with trans people. The Organization Intersex International and it's dozens of offices and offshoots, The UK Intersex Organization, and the Intersex Society of North America - which all are quite different in perspective - are all really clear and have statements available that, yes, sex and gender is complicated at the edges, but that it is incredibly important to be clear that the major differences between trans people and intersex people, the different issues and discrimination being dealt with, and that there is no evidence of any connection between them.

It's detrimental to treat intersex people as a prop or evidence in an argument for trans people - it ignores so much and shows a lack of understanding and compassion for intersex people as people rather than a gotcha. I'm sure many continue using us this way regardless of any evidence put forward not to, but please remember that some intersex conditions are lethal without treatment and life-limiting with treatment, and when intersex advocates discuss that sex is more complicated than female and male, it's not to say intersex people are not female or male, but that those who have been harmed, those who have been mutilated, those who have been abused, those who have died for being on the edges need to be brought in and included in the definition of female and male and that it is the current common ideal of each sex, medically and culturally, that is too simplified.

...and, far more on topic, the only connection I see between the two chants is that the transwomen most at risk of being victims of violence are also those who are prostituted. That alongside location and race, if I remember correctly, are far bigger risk factors than being trans only. Some of the protests I've seen and been at have somewhat disconnected chants that may sound odd together and I would find that chant a bit weird if I came across it.

KitsandCaboodles · 12/01/2019 16:37

Yes SGB I generally can tell the sex of someone at a glance with at least 90% accuracy' regardless of what their wearing. You make it sound as though I have to go to great effort but humans are very good at doing this. We can do it without really thinking about it. The other day I had an interview and was told 'Obvious male name whom I was expecting' will be with you soon. I was called in after ten minutes and it didn't even take a second to realise that this young woman sitting there was clearly not 'Obvious male name'. and that the 'Obvious male name' had arranged the interviews but that 'young female manager' would be doing the interviews. I didn't have to make any effort to determine that she wasn't male. It's that's easy for most people.

And no it doesn't generally matter what sex someone is. I don't care what sex my waiter or bank manager is but I may care what my doctor is, the sex of the person in the bathroom I am using or the sex of the person walking behind me in a dark, secluded area. I may want that information to make choices about what I do next.

Why should women who lack privilege be the ones to give up the scraps that they've achieved at such cost, to transwomen? I'm quite happy to help ensure that they have their own piece of pie but not if it means giving up the tiny hard won piece that I have.

KitsandCaboodles · 12/01/2019 16:43

I'm not anything special in being able to determine sex either. I'm probably worse at it than most. I hear people talking about how men and women walk and body part ratios and I couldn't tell you a damn thing about that but I can still determine very quickly most people's sex. I'm not sitting with a calculator furiously entering the width of their hips, arm length and handspan into a calculator to determine their sex. It isn't as complicated as you make it sound.

SirVixofVixHall · 12/01/2019 18:16

A. There is no such thing as non-binary. Everyone is non-binary, it is a nonsense term made up by priveleged young people who want to feel marginalised.
B. Trans people have the same rights as anyone else of their sex, anf increasingly they have those of the opposite sex as well, so extra rights.
C. Should we ever reach a point where two trans people a week are murdered in the UK , then I might consider transpeople as marginalised as women. At the moment you are statistically less likely to be murdered as a transwoman, than any other male, in fact you are more likely to be a murderer, than to be murdered.

SirVixofVixHall · 12/01/2019 18:20

Sorry mis spelled privilege as i was crossly typing too fast.
There are two sexes. One sex holds most of the power, however they dress.

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