to think this is creepy as fuck?

[timetostepup]

This is outside a talk by a Canadian Feminist.

A man with a megaphone, getting a crowd of women and men to chant, over and over, "transwomen are women! Sex work is work!"

Why only transwomen, not transmen?

What has prostitution got to do with gender identity - what's the link?

I can't see one - other than both are about people born men being able to do what they want, and fuck what women want, is that it?

This really gives me the chills, looks like something you might see in the Handmaid's Tale.

twitter.com/Tarankparmar/status/1083584168280424448

I didn't say this op demonstrated that at all.

It was a comment to the op to say that yes, it is sad that women can't dicuss their worries and concerns without being targeted like this.

Does this happen to Jewish groups? Black rights groups? Would others be allowed to picket outside those without a reaction?

“ we should not be able to tell at a glance someone’s sex “ ...what a shame then, that we almost always can, and why shouldn’t we ? Being able to tell the sexes apart is fairly vital to mammals.
Years ago a close friend of mine made a new friend, this new friend did look convincingly female at a glance, but made me feel very uncomfortable. When i thought about why, it was small visual cues, yes, but the overriding thing was smell. The person smelled like a male to me, while I was told that he was a female. He was, I think a transsexual,( Brazilian, young , small and slender, with delicate features). I found the fact that i was responding to this person as a male, while being told that he was female, very disconcerting and unsettling. He was quite a troubled soul, and eventually had to flee the area after ending up in bed with a skinhead who took great exception to having been deceived as to the person’s sex. It was all really sad, he seemed a deeply unhappy person. He told my friend he had been in a car crash , to explain the scarring from breast implants. This was thirty years ago, and I still think of him sometimes and wonder how his life went. He lied about everything, having lied about his sex, all the other lies seemed to follow. Maybe he no longer presents as female and is comfortable being male.

Before anyone can explain to me why transwomen are women, I'd want them to define in very simple terms what is a woman. Otherwise any explanation is meaningless.
You can't build a meaningful statement on undefined terms.

Even if you do believe TWAW surely that clip of the protest still gives you the creeps?

One person with a megaphone demonstrates aggressive groups doing all they can to prevent and silence talks?

It's far more than that. Venues are bombarded until they cancel women's groups meeting. Feminists are no-platformed. Women are threatened, doxxed, their employers are contacted in efforts to have them fired. If you think all that's happening is one person with a megaphone outside one meeting, fair enough. But don't underestimate the amount of aggression and pressure being directed at anyone who wants to talk about the issue.

Part of the problem is that most people think (as I used to) that transwomen are gay men. Nowadays, that isn't true. Many - perhaps most? - are heterosexual, but now claim to be lesbians and abuse actual lesbians for 'not including them in their dating pool'. Simultaneously homophobic and rapey.

I didn't say this op demonstrated that at all

Oh, okay, my mistake. When you said

As for the op

It demonstrates...

I thought you were saying the OP demonstrates it. It is a bit confusing.

I think the one person arguing for transwomen has left the thread now, so it will now become just another mumsnet echo-chamber trans thread. Might as well just close it now.

“Anyway, this is not my thread, thank you OP for being kind enough to let this discussion continue but I don’t think I should take up more space”

The frustration when this happens yet again. !

I also don’t like cultural assumptions about sex. We should not be able to tell at a glance someone’s sex

This isn't culture, it's biology. Go to places where the standard way of dressing for men and for women isn't what you're accustomed to and you'll still be able to tell who's male and who's female.

...and the video linked in the OP would be fucking comical if it wasn't so creepy. They sound like zombies. "Transwomen are women, sex work is work. Transwomen are women, sex work is work. Transwomen are women, sex work is work. Transwomen are women, sex work is work. If we say it often enough everyone will give in and agree with us. Transwomen are women, sex work is work. Transwomen are women, sex work is work. "

YANBU OP.

They are chanting that because chanting "I HATE WOMEN, CRUSH ALL WOMEN" would be too obvious.

Woman is not a costume.
There is no grey area here, humans are not clownfish or shapeshifters.

Humans can wear whatever the hell they want and it changes not one jot which sex they belong too.

Men telling women what to do (and men reacting violently to any perceived disobedience) is an old story, this is just a re-release with a new cover, don't be fooled.

Or we won't. Strangely enough the women on this site will continue to talk. It seems to drive people batshit. I wonder why.

It's always the same. As soon as the holes in their theory begin to appear and it starts to take on water they run.

That was in response to the 'close this thread' post.

I think the one person arguing for transwomen has left the thread now, so it will now become just another mumsnet echo-chamber trans thread. Might as well just close it now.

It isn't arguing for transwomen, it is arguing that transwomen ARE women. And the question of how this happens is never answered.

There is always a hope that someone who can explain how this happens, and what has to happen for men to be considered women, will come along and explain it to us.

If there are any lurkers who can describe this transformation then perhaps they can put the matter to rest?

Cake to ice, or do people not do that on AIBU?

“I think the one person arguing for transwomen has left the thread now”

I will argue til I am blue in the face for trans women. For their right to dress and present however they wish, for them to use whatever name or pronouns they wish, for them to have equality laws rigidly enforced in their favour so they can live their lives peacefully and unharrassed. In 99% of situations it does not matter. However, in the remaining 1%- sport, for example, or intimate care-it does matter. Where rights conflict there must be discussion and compromise. And that is just not happening.

Carrotss

But my point was that this thread is only about a person with a megaphone shouting slogans.

But it wasn't just one person with a megaphone. It was a whole group. He was just leading the chants.

Might as well just close it now.

Why, because people are going to be saying things you don't agree with?

Cake to ice, or do people not do that on AIBU?

You know, I don't think they do.

Why is the response to women talking amongst themselves and voicing opinions is always 'Shut them down!' Or 'Shut up!'

I still want to know why we shouldn't be able to tell people's sex at a glance, and indeed how we're meant to avoid being able to do so. Are we all meant to poke ourselves in both eyes on a regular basis?

*Why, because people are going to be saying things you don't agree with?

I didn't really disagree with much, except for that one post, which apparently I misunderstood anyway.

Why is the response to women talking amongst themselves and voicing opinions is always 'Shut them down!' Or 'Shut up!'

"Might as well" is hardly an order or demanding language, is it? The whole discussion is just so repetitive when you're all agreeing with each other.

I still want to know why we shouldn't be able to tell people's sex at a glance, and indeed how we're meant to avoid being able to do so. Are we all meant to poke ourselves in both eyes on a regular basis?

It is utterly baffling what bullshit comes out of their mouths - every week a new angle.

Why is the response to women talking amongst themselves and voicing opinions is always 'Shut them down!' Or 'Shut up!'

Very telling that the person with the megaphone shouting about what is or isn't a woman is a man. And all the weedy voices parroting him seem to be women, doing what they're told :(

Morally I think that trans people have had an extremely tough time, both from the medical profession and social prejudice, and, on compassionate grounds, we should respect their identity choices.

I have no problem in respecting transwomen's identity as transwomen (similarly transmen as transmen). That is not the same as being asked to respect their choice to identify as women.