To think that the uk is a hostile environment for the natives aswell as for immigrants nowadays?

[malificent7]

Well the government have succeeded in one thing; making the uk a hostile place to live for most people what with cuts. Brexit etc. Is it just me or do things feel... tense?

I didn't say it wasn't an issue for other groups at all, infact I repeatedly asked if you would be supportive of white English speaking Christians migrating to the UK in large numbers with similar views about the e.g. the role of women in society and etc. But you won't say.

I'm looking at islamic culture around the world, what is wrong with that ? Can you explain, thanks.

Boris - Surely if non-immigrant groups show homophobic attitudes then it is a case of two wrongs don't make a right? Why would the UK want more homophobic attitudes imported when there might already be a problem with homophobia here?

You sound like you want to excuse the homophobia of some migrants with whataboutery. That is a really childish attitude and just makes you sound like you are prejudiced/racist against certain religious groups (Anglicans) whilst excusing the same issue in other groups.

"I'm looking at islamic culture around the world, what is wrong with that ? "

Except that you don't allow comparisons with other Christian countries.

"You sound like you want to excuse the homophobia of some migrants with whataboutery. That is a really childish attitude and just makes you sound like you are prejudiced/racist against certain religious groups (Anglicans) whilst excusing the same issue in other groups."

Not at all, its an accurate rebuttal of Elon's point that immigration from Islamic countries is problem because of the values that she has identified. These values are already held here by people who have been exposed to "Western" culture for far longer.

If anything it shows that whilst its slightly higher among Muslims, the changing of values ( and hence integration) is rapid.

I have displayed no prejudice against any other religious groups, I have not stipulated that they pose a risk to Western values or to the future.

I started to feel the country was hostile towards me personally when I became a single parent. It was ok until that point.

Boris, so it doesn't worry you when you hear what people in other countries who strongly identify with a faith believe, because you are convinced they will change those beliefs shortly after they cross into UK airspace ?

I do allow comparisons with other Christian countries, if 81% of people polled in a country thought stoning should be the punishment for adultery I would not be in favour of allowing unfettered immigration from that country, the religion that they claim informs these sick views is actually nothing to do with it. However, there is a correlation between these countries. According to your own argument after a few years living in such a country you would be all for stoning yourself, having absorbed the culture.

But again you are back to using the flawed Pew Study.

You aren't comparing countries on levels of development either, but OK European countries don't think the death penalty should be the punishment for murder, but the US does, and the justification for this is religious. Should we not allow immigration from America? Or from certain American states?

You also make sweeping generalizations, because people in one country believe something doesn't mean others do.

However, to use the research you quote regarding homosexuality and Muslim beliefs.

86% of British Muslims feel a strong sense of belonging in Britain, which is higher than the national average of 83%.

78% said they would like to integrate into British life on most things apart from Islamic schooling and some laws.

Two-thirds (66%) said they completely condemned people who took part in stoning adulterers, and a further 13% condemned them to some extent. This final one I'm putting here means that 79% of people thought that it isn't a good idea. In complete contrast to the Egypt finding.

So does that indicate that Muslims in the UK change values or have different values to people living in other countries.

77% do not support the introduction of Sharia Law.

I work with young asylum seekers. One of the things they like about the U.K. is how polite everybody is. The love the rituals of please and thank you and are keen to make sure they understand the rules.

So Boris suppose there is a state in the US home to a devout group, claiming to be Christian, when polled 81% openly state adulterers should be stoned.

You would have no qualms about as many of them moving to the UK as wanted to come, and you would point out to anyone who raised an eyebrow that the survey was "flawed" in your opinion, and you would be confident they would abandon such beliefs yes ?

Capital punishment for murderers is not something I support either, however one has to be honest and say that this is not the same as the summary stoning of someone who is said to have cheated on their spouse by a long chalk.

I didn't think we asked questions that "opened windows into men's souls" in the U.K.?

"and you would be confident they would abandon such beliefs yes ?"

Looking at the data concerning UK muslims and those in other countries?

Yes.

I take that as a yes to all 3 parts of the question and you would defend the hypothetical US christian group. And you would call anyone who was concerned about it and worried that some of them would not change their beliefs at all, racists or some other word ending in "phobic" to try and shame them out of their gut feelings? Then you would express dismay at the rise of right wing populism ? Gotcha, thanks.

"Then you would express dismay at the rise of right wing populism ? Gotcha, thanks."

Funnily enough, right wing populism is very entrenched in fuandmentalist chritian beliefs and has a lot of correlations with other extreme beliefs.

Oh and I answered one part of your question, the rest is your straw man.

Poor arguing, yet again.

Boris. The Pew study is not flawed. You just don't like what it is saying. As Elon says, if the same statistics were highlighted among a group of Christians you would have no problem not wanting them in the country. Sounds like you are the one with the bias.

@ElonMask would I defend freedom or region, freedom of thought and freedom of expression even if I didn't agree with it? Absolutely.

I am dismayed by the rise of right wing populism but I support the freedom of speech that allows it.

In the U.K. we have a long history of not opening windows "into men's souls" and demanding to know what they think and feel and then restricting their freedoms based on that.

78% said they would like to integrate into British life on most things apart from Islamic schooling and some laws

That number ‘on most things’ isn’t high enough.

77% do not support the introduction of Sharia Law

Again, not high enough, and the introduction of Sharia Law should not even be raised as a possibility.

"The Pew study is not flawed."

The pew study is flawed because it gets presented as ( x % of Muslims think" and then you look at the data and what they are using are a particular group of Muslims in one country to make that claim. It is used to make sweeping generalizations and doesn't contain wide enough data to do so.

I'm not biased at all, but as shown, Elon is selective about which pieces of data she uses from which studies. Using the Pew study to show attitdues to Egyptian Muslims to stoning, while at the same time not using the British attitude survey, which she had previously used to make another point. Mostly because its convenient.

At no point have I shown prejudice, just demonstrate inconsistencies in the assertions made.

"Again, not high enough, and the introduction of Sharia Law should not even be raised as a possibility."

Of course its high enough, its an overwhelming majority.

@Moussemoose

Things were rather different in the first Queen Elizabeth’s time. She didn’t care what men privately believed, no, but they were expected to conform outwardly to the views held by the majority.

You say yes, I say no. I don’t consider 77% an overwhelming majority. And Sharia Law should not even be thought of as a possibility in this country.

"And Sharia Law should not even be thought of as a possibility in this country."

No, people can believe what they like.

Bet you considered 52/48 and overwhelming majority.

And the law today does not care what people think privately but does ask them to act that way publicly.

I know people who have issues with homosexuality, some Christian, some Muslim. I don't like it, I'm not comfortable with their prejudice but as long as they don't use it to act in a prejudicial way it's not my business.

No, people can believe what they like

They can believe in it if they like, want if if they like, but they cannot have it.

Bet you considered 52/48 and overwhelming majority

Don’t be a fool.

Don’t be a fool

Have you been on a Brexit thread?

52/48 is a strong majority, the government must listen, the people have spoken, the will of the people is clear.

Lots of people regard 52% as a crushing majority.

It's rather depressing actually.

"but they cannot have it"

Well obviously not.

A majority of a certain group (age/political affiliation) in the UK want the death penalty back, doesn't mean they can have it either.

the rest is your straw man. Poor arguing, yet again.

If it's a straw man, then you are clearly saying it misrepresents you, meaning you would not be happy with the hypothetical Christians coming to your neighborhood, which seems somewhat inconsistent at best. It's easy for you to clear this up though, so please do so instead of trying to slither out of it.

I am dismayed by the rise of right wing populism but I support the freedom of speech that allows it.

Fortunately we don't allow it in this country though and so people preaching hate are banned. I find your position to be most irresponsible, when the shit hits the fan like in Rotherham you throw your hands up and say "we had no way of knowing these men would have such horrific attitudes to white teenage girls".