To think that the uk is a hostile environment for the natives aswell as for immigrants nowadays?

[malificent7]

Well the government have succeeded in one thing; making the uk a hostile place to live for most people what with cuts. Brexit etc. Is it just me or do things feel... tense?

@PencilsInSpace

We started there centuries ago. And we’re doing a pretty good job.

I’d go further and say I don’t think the British have anything worthwhile that they believe in anymore

But why are we so afraid to stand up for what we believe in? British values are good values!

Ok pencilsinspace-

Human rights act as it is now is largely based on Judeo/Christian values that preceded it.
Values just don’t come up from nowhere- Different cultures have different values, this is evident.

The human rights act is a piece of legislation, which can be torn up and re-written.

MissyMoo, ancient Rome was well known to be fairly misogynistic. It's usually thought they were less so than Greece, but more so than northern European peoples of the day. I'm not sure that comparing to Rome is fair. Plus, even if men did have the legal right to kill wives and children it was fairly shocking when the right was used. I'd suggest on the basis of no knowledge whatsoever that the rate probably wasn't much higher than dv has been through Christian times. Any available academics, please feel free to tell me how wrong I am. It was not Christianity alone that stopped the practice of men keeping numerous women partners if they were rich enough, nor the practice of slavery incidentally. Religion does not equal all social morality.

I certainly do not appreciate some of the values Britain has in comparison to other cultures. The one about being the most economically unequal state in Europe causes me trouble. So does the close link we have between economic status at birth and economic achievement through life. Perhaps we're uncertain about British values because those in the middle and at the top who claim we have them are finally beginning to see them for the fictions they were and have become again.

@Missymoo100

The way folks talk about this country sometimes, as though our track record of human rights abuses is unparalleled - I don’t understand it at all

“But why are we so afraid to stand up for what we believe in? British values are good values!”

I agree that they are good values.
I think people are just sleep walking, while everything falls apart around them. I think people are becoming more materialistic and only interested in material things and seeking pleasure. They have comfortable lives- so don’t feel the need to stand up for anything while things are still good. Until one day when it does fall apart, and what they have is taken away from them- they might see that what they had was worth preserving.

They're good values. The problem is that those at the top don't practice them. When they do, perhaps they might have the right to preach to those of us at the bottom whose livelihoods are being eroded or removed. The only values in practice are hypocrisy, sycophancy and inherited wealth.

ElonMask

there was much discussion in my family and ILs as to whether the assailant being black being the predominant reason as to why he would carry out such a vicious crime.

This is what the PP said; the family were saying that the main reason for committing the crime was because he was black, which is obviously a racist thing to say as it suggests that black people are violent. You then said this:

Right but he was black, and the vast majority of knife crime in the UK is committed by black men is it not ? Why would it be "racist" to suspect this was the case again ?

@DangermousesSidekick

Those at the top rarely have!

“Religion does not equal all social morality”
I’m sure it doesn’t, but I still think it has had a huge influence.
Go search polyamory in a google “news” search, you will see its starting to be promoted and popularised by msm. I think Christianity being embedded in cultural values protected women from this, but without it we will just end up going down these harmful paths of the past.

@Missymoo100

I think what we have now at this point in time is very unusual. My grandfather flew Lancaster bombers during the war, so within living memory - but fast fading into the history books now - previous generations had to live with two global conflicts that brought devastation and death, hideous diseases and grinding poverty. The struggle to survive was so much greater - not much time has elapsed, and yet we’re so complacent now. This peaceful period in which we live is unusual in history and may not last.

TacoLover

Ah well I misread that, I did not think his skin colour was the reason why he committed the crime, just that when I read about these brutal and conspicuous murders e.g. on a crowded train in the middle of the day, and that assailant was unknown to the victim, I didn't immediately think white British.

DangermousesSidekick
Your statement is slightly humorous to me because it's the ones at the top of society in Britain whom have forced mass immigration onto a public who are generally against it or want it greatly reduced..so whatever you think of those at the top is no argument as to why we should be all for massive immigration from different cultures.

I think when people go through hardships it builds character, and appreciation for the things they have.
People take what they have now for granted- they don’t see what fragile a balance it is. There seems to be an obsession with rights and entitlements, - without discipline, responsibility, self sacrifice, and putting others first.
I read somewhere that the route cause of most evils is ingratitude and i think this is probably true.

@Missymoo100

I totally agree with you. We’re so ungrateful! It’s a miracle that we’re here at this point - a miracle that there’s nutritious food available in shops, clean water, vaccines and medicine - we’re so bloody lucky, yet so ungrateful!

discipline, responsibility, self sacrifice, and putting others first

That’s what life is about. Previous generations knew this. But now we’re told the goal is happiness.

All the battles that were fought before us, for us to enjoy what we have now, and people seem so flippant about things that they didn’t have to fight to secure.

“That’s what life is about. Previous generations knew this. But now we’re told the goal is happiness”.

This is very true- and I think the more people try to seek happiness with material things or obsessing about themselves- the less happy they become in the long run.

The human rights act is a piece of legislation, which can be torn up and re-written.

It can but we're still a signatory of the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, along with almost every other state in the world, and we're a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights and this won't change if we leave the EU. HRA is just the way we have written our commitment to human rights into domestic law. Our international legal obligations to human rights would not disappear if we tore up the HRA.

What are 'British values' specifically? Can anyone list them?

The hostile environment causes many people, including british citizens, to struggle to get access to nutritious food, vaccines and medicines. What should these people feel grateful for?

When people say 'putting others first' which others are they thinking of and in what way are they putting them first?

I read somewhere that the route cause of most evils is ingratitude and i think this is probably true.

Babies and little children are notoriously ungrateful.

Don’t get me wrong I think the human rights act is a good piece of legislation- but it is built around pre-existing ideas.

Traditionally British values are based on culture, traditions and beliefs to name a few;

Justice and law- equity, fairness, impartiality, proportionality
Monogamous marriage and family structures
Belief in the right to life and of human dignity.
Looking after the vulnerable and those in need.
Pursuit of freedom from oppression.
Freedom to make ones own life choices, within scope law.
British has a moral understanding based around intentions- trying to do the right thing is what matters .
Some other cultures, ie south East Asian- are “honour- shame based” ie how others perceive you is most important - affecting your social standing......... which is not a British value.

Babies and little children are notoriously ungrateful.

Yes and if we all grew up as adults and still acted like toddlers, the world wouldn’t be a very good place to live in.

What have people to be grateful for?

Well that really illustrates my point- through history people have struggled, wars, persecutions, famines and you can’t think of anything people in this country should be grateful for?

“When people say 'putting others first' which others are they thinking of and in what way are they putting them first?”
Well it means putting yourself out for others- not being a selfish, self centred tw@

Babies and little children are notoriously ungrateful

We’re discussing adults, honey - you know, grownups! Mature people.

PencilsInSpace - you’re so deliberately obtuse and disingenuous. You try so hard to misinterpret people’s words. It’s absolutely hilarious

@Missymoo100

She knows it’s all nonsense, since when were babies relevant?! Desperate to disagree at any cost! 😂😂

“We pay more tax in Scotland.”

We actually pay less tax. Our Government in just chooses go spend on different things from what Westminster chooses to spend on in England.

I didn't ask 'What have people to be grateful for?'

I asked 'what should these people be grateful for?' - people who are denied any legal means of feeding and clothing themselves, or of accessing shelter or medical care, despite being in the UK legally, perhaps being British citizens, perhaps having themselves excaped war, famine or persecution, perhaps having no safe home country to go home to.

How does that list of 'British values' (think I prefer human rights myself but whatever) relate to the way we as a nation treat these people? Is it all just empty words?

How does that list of 'British values' (think I prefer human rights myself but whatever) relate to the way we as a nation treat these people? Is it all just empty words?

Question makes no sense- you asked for a list of British values and you got one. You are changing the question to something I haven’t mentioned.
They are not arbitrary “human rights” because not all countries have the same culture and beliefs.