To think that the uk is a hostile environment for the natives aswell as for immigrants nowadays?

[malificent7]

Well the government have succeeded in one thing; making the uk a hostile place to live for most people what with cuts. Brexit etc. Is it just me or do things feel... tense?

Missymoo said she believed that the root cause of most evils is ingratitude. That doesn't make sense because that would imply that babies and young children are evil.

Personally I don't think evil is a useful concept because it stops people having to think about why awful things happen and why people behave dreadfully. Once something/somebody is labelled evil it requires no further thought.

My point Missymoo is that all those awful things I listed are happening to people in the UK because we have devised the 'hostile environment' (see OP title). We don't seem to be applying any of your British values in the treatment of these people. Maybe they aren't British values after all.

As a general rule, we have a good standard of living and a welfare state to act as a safety net for those in neeed of help. We have an NHS, police force, free education, etc. Generally speaking, we don’t do badly. That’s the point being made, as I’m sure you know.

Or maybe the hostile environment runs completely counter to British values and we should all be doing what we can to raise this and overturn these dreadful laws.

Even those of us who apparently don't like foreigners very much.

*PencilsInSpace

Missymoo said she believed that the root cause of most evils is ingratitude. That doesn't make sense because that would imply that babies and young children are evil*

Of course it doesnt, don’t be so silly. We were discussing ingratitude on the part of adults for the many benefits of living in this country at this point in history, as well you known. Why bring babies into it? They have no concept of good or evil.

This ‘hostile environment’ exists only in your mind, I’m afraid.

People who are subjected to the hostile environment are severely hampered in their ability to access the NHS, police force, free education, etc.

I agree though, as a general rule the rest of us don't do badly (welfare state and social care are falling to bits but that's another thread) which is why I think OP is BU.

...with the aim of making life in the UK extremely difficult for those who are not here legally

So it should be!

Landlords are now required to check the immigration status of tenants and can be fined or imprisoned if they fail to do so, if they knowingly let a property to someone without the correct papers

Sounds fair to me.

The NHS was obliged to share patient information with immigration officials

Fair enough.

Hospital staff are now required to check immigration status before treatment and demand upfront payment of up to 150% of the cost to anyone who cannot prove their status

Again, fair enough.

Confusion has led to GP surgeries refusing to register anyone without certain documents

When they have the correct documents, they’re will be no problem will there?

The Home Office now routinely asks DVLA to revoke driving licences of anybody believed to be in the UK illegally

Fine by me.

Theresa May wanted to create a policy to make schools put children of undocumented migrants at the bottom of the list for places and to require schools to withdraw places for them

Sounds fair to me.

There are now increased sanctions on employers who employ anyone without permission to be in the UK, up to £20,000 fine and imprisonment

Good.

Banks are now required to check the immigration status of both new and existing customers

Again, fine.

This doesn't just affect those who are in the UK illegally. It affects anyone who cannot easily prove their right to be here

I can’t imagine living somewhere for years and years and yet being so lax about your immigration status. People need to take personal responsibility for this.

Those who have grown up in the UK since early childhood and never even knew they were here illegally until they tried to apply to university

That’s on their parents, not the government

I'll just let you carry on I think.

MrsAriadneOliver, 👏

It's all irrelevant. As an EU member (for now at least) there is free travel for EU citizens.

So how is an American here "illegally" any worse than a non english speaking Italian here "legally". It's just a law for the sake of having a law. It's purpose is meaningless. There is no such thing as "Britishness" and "British values" dont exist either. No point being precious about border controls and immigration checks when we have no real control over who comes here anyway.

There is no such thing as "Britishness" and "British values" dont exist either.

Interesting then that Britain is quite a different society to e.g. Iran despite having no culture. Just luck I guess.

In these discussions I'm always reminded of groups like "Gays for Palestine"....who obviously have never tried being gay in under Hamas.

You need to live in some parts of Asia and the middle east and Africa before you think the UK is not welcoming and the government tries to ‘trip you up’. Tense is in Afghanistan where you wonder if your quarters are going to be bombed - where you sign a waiver saying you’re aware this might happen. I’ve lived In different countries and the UK is one of the better ones. Believe me.

Or maybe you need to live in Sweden, Denmark or Japan - the taxes there are astronomical.

Am I the only one feeling like this discussion is turning into Lord of the Flies with this talk of babies being born evil

@TacoLover

I think Missy was making the observation that we tend to take a lot of the good things in our lives for granted these days. We don’t even think about how lucky we are to have clean water. Babies were totally irrelevant to the point being made

But why are we so afraid to stand up for what we believe in? British values are good values!

Because those in power have an agenda and know if they can divide the population, make it disparate and inhomogenous, there is less likely to be an uprising/pushback as there is no common identity and sense of solidarity, so far easier to control.

I see the British as a sort of battered wife - they have been told for so long that they are shit, that their culture and values are shit and that they must make penance for the next thousand years for the British Empire etc that they are browbeaten and have given up and many have been hypnotised by all this negativity and suffer from Stockholm syndrome. It is very sad. What I am trying to understand is what is the ultimate goal of those who are pushing this and what kind of world do they want.

I am honestly shocked and saddened by the level of homelessness, hidden homelessness and poverty in this country now. It has always been an issue at the fringes of our society, now the problem is massive (and I have not lived a sheltered life).
The cuts have hit out healthcare system, education, and all social care to the point that now if you want to be seen or helped you have to find a way to pay privately (how?) or use equally overstretched charities etc.
Often there simply is nobody to help. So all too often instead of being helped, services only get involved when things are already in a very bad way.

The only people who don't realise the mess we are in are people who do not have to use services and have the money and means to avoid them, but even these people are all too often supporting their adult children, elderly relatives etc. I think very few people have honestly been unscathed by the cuts, and these are mostly the elite who benefit from them.

I certainly don't think migrants and asylum seekers have a good time of it here, but "natives" are definitely struggling too.

I see the British as a sort of battered wife - they have been told for so long that they are shit, that their culture and values are shit and that they must make penance for the next thousand years for the British Empire etc that they are browbeaten

I see what you mean, but the only people I ever hear say these things are other Brits. I don’t really understand why we’ve come to this point, why British folks themselves don't feel more pride in what we are and what we have achieved.

We focus exclusively now on all the evils perpetrated throughout our history - and there have been many - but we’re keen to judge ourselves only by our worst mistakes and ignore the wonderful things we’ve accomplished and the huge contributions we’ve made to the world. And our contributions have been profoundly good! No one would think of judging modern Germany only by the Holocaust - we accept that it was a shameful episode in their past of terrible consequences for humanity, yet the Empire is still used as a stick with which to beat modern British folks, as though we still bear the shame and guilt for our ancestors’ actions.

I’m not saying that we haven’t made mistakes or carried out misdeeds as a nation, but we judge ourselves only by the worst. And it’s not a balanced picture. We have so much to be proud of and so much to be thankful for. We have the oldest functional democracy in the world. Humanity would be infinitely poorer without the contributions Britain has made over the centuries.

It's time to get into the 21st century and focus on the now, not what ancestors did (for which there's little point feeling either guilty or proud as it was nothing to do with you).

I see what you mean, but the only people I ever hear say these things are other Brits. I don’t really understand why we’ve come to this point, why British folks themselves don't feel more pride in what we are and what we have achieved.

Because the brainwashing is insidious. If you are told every day in subtle (and unsubtle) ways that you are shit and must pay for the crimes of your forefathers then you start to believe it. The latest one is that Churchill was a racist who should not be revered rather than being a human being displaying the values of his time (and saving millions of lives - ironically including many individuals of the Jewish race among others). It's really depressing.

Who focuses on what is wrong in the U.K.?

I actually work with asylum seekers, I actually teach 'British Values' and then I come on these threads and people tell me what happens in classrooms. It's amazing that you know more than me, when I do it, discuss it and share ideas with other professionals in the area.

There are lots of positives about Britain: rule of law, British involvement in the ECHR, democracy, tolerance, politeness etc.

Many of the newly arrived students love the way people in the U.K. drive. It's a big deal for them, they are thrilled when people cede right of way.

We discuss the positives and the negatives. We challenge views when they are not in line with U.K. law and expectations. We do it politely, positively and in a supportive way. This is what is happening in classrooms for children teenagers and adults up and down the U.K. every day.

mothertruck3r I love British history it has good things in it and some awful things as well.

I don't teach history but the aim is to try to teach young people to look at the facts and make their own judgments. These judgments should be made on fact not myth.

And I'm sorry to burst your bubble but Churchill was racist, even by the standards of the day. There is lots and lots of evidence to support this. However, he also lead the U.K. through WW2 and made the decision to stay and fight in 1940 when he was urged not to by others.

2 facts about the same person. Now you draw a conclusion about him. Your opinion could well be different to mine but if it is fact based then that's fine.

Should we hide the unpleasant facts?

It is pretty feeble not to be able to handle analysis of past politicians' negatives as well as positives.

@mirialis

True - the past was nothing to do with us personally - so why do people use the Empire as a stick to beat modern Brits with and urge them to ‘take responsibility’?

@Moussemoose

We don’t hide the unpleasant facts, they inform the ‘whole picture’, not obscure it. He was a great man. Not perfect, no, a product of his time, and no human being is ever without his flaws - nevertheless, great.