To think that the uk is a hostile environment for the natives aswell as for immigrants nowadays?

[malificent7]

Well the government have succeeded in one thing; making the uk a hostile place to live for most people what with cuts. Brexit etc. Is it just me or do things feel... tense?

Because people are stuck in the past and it does Britain no good to bang out about past glories and feeling proud of them because it also links Britain to past atrocities of which we would therefore have to feel shame or guilt.

None of this emotional crap helps Britian in the 21st Century as it needs to get to grips with its much altered status in a much altered world and get real.

And I'm sorry to burst your bubble but Churchill was racist, even by the standards of the day.

Lots of famous people from history were racist though. Mohammed slaughtered a whole tribe of Jews - the Banu Qurayza simply because they were Jews and Ghandi said some very dodgy things which were basically praising Hitler yet he is considered a paragon of virtue.

Most historical figures are products of the values of their time and need to be seen within this context.

@mirialis

I’m a historian so can’t help feeling that love for history I’m afraid! It’s very useful to us and inform us in many subtle ways. Of course I agree that we can’t remain in the past, we can’t stagnate, but we’re at a strange point in time when we’re not quite sure of our place in the world.

The debate has been had on another thread.

While we still benefit financially from the result of empire do we owe some responsibility.

I think on balance while we still profit we have a level of responsibility, we shouldn't prostrate ourselves, but accept some of the issues were caused by us.

Churchill: with the evidence at your disposal you think he is a great man and you are happy to overlook his racism (which was condemned at the time) that's your choice. However, we need to be aware in many places during the war (Salford, South Wales) he was regularly booed in cinemas.

You are entitled to your opinion - but it has to be informed by balance. The poster was appalled he was being described as racist. Churchill was racist.

Churchill's racism was condemned by his contemporaries.

Because people are stuck in the past and it does Britain no good to bang out about past glories and feeling proud of them because it also links Britain to past atrocities of which we would therefore have to feel shame or guilt.

Funny though how it is ok to constantly bring up the evils of the Empire and expect people who are living today to flagellate themselves over the sins of past generations, yet at the same time they are not allowed to be proud of that generations achievements. Strange also that other cultures are not expected to feel guilty for the wars and aggression attributed to their past leaders and histories, only the West must forever pay penance.

I agree with the OP, in the sense that it has become more divided, which is largely I think due to Brexit, with the income inequality supported by Tory and the Blair governments being the main reasons.

Most historical figures are products of the values of their time and need to be seen within this context

Absolutely. We watch Tudor documentaries with fascination, we love the soap opera of it all, but by modern standards Henry VIII was the most appalling human being. Yet we accept that he was a product of his time.

this worldwide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing

This is Churchill writing about Judaism in 1920. We know many, many people in the establishment opposed anti Semitism in the 1920s and 1930s.

He lead the country during WW2 that led to the saving of many Jewish lives.

My point is it's not as simple as good or bad. The Brexit debate is forcing us to take sides and declare for good or bad, black or white.

Life, history and politics is rarely as simple as that.

Yep, that Hitler bloke was well known for going off on a rant about how un-PC and racist Churchill was...

You might focus on what is wrong mothertruck3r I don't.

As I explain below I am happy to provide a balanced view of the U.K. and promote the things we do well - also listed below.

I'm puzzled you don't want people to be negative about the U.K. yet you are constantly negative about the U.K.

Of course we should examine history and be informed by it but as I said, the emotional crap (be it pride or guilt over things that were nothing to do with us) is not good for Britain and the mess we are currently in.

@Moussemoose

We’ve had this discussion before on another thread.

I am not happy to overlook his racism. That is not what I said, and well you know it.

Do not patronise me by telling me I am entitled to your opinion - but it has to be informed by balance. I am a trained historian, as I believe I told you on another thread. I know my history very well. My opinion of the man is a balanced one.

See it's balance we need.

Comparing Hitler to Churchill is not balanced or proportionate.

Compare Churchill to other U.K. politicians.

It doesn't have to be Churchill all good or all bad - it's balance.

And Henry VIII is another who was condemned by many in his own time.

Brilliant I am glad you have a balanced view. You don't tell me what your opinion on his racist views are though.

Yet Churchill went on to save many Jewish lives. Ghandi was a contemporary and spoke favourably about Hitler, yet nobody is crying out about Ghandi being a racist or suggesting statues of him be torn down. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem met with Hitler and told him to "burn the Jews", but of course we must focus on Churchill's racism .

@Moussemoose

You know everything about everything, Mousse. It’s pointless to engage with you on any subject.

Lots of historians look at some of Ghandi's actions and question them.

Every historical figure raises issues.

Strange also that other cultures are not expected to feel guilty for the wars and aggression attributed to their past leaders and histories, only the West must forever pay penance.

Not strange at all - myopic anti-Westernism is what the modern Left lives for. Other cultures are as pure as the driven snow, naturally.

I don't know everything, I am happy to admit there are areas I know nothing about.

My point is taking a strong stance one way or another is very damaging at the moment especially in the context of the Brexit debate.

Other cultures and the problems that arise are obviously a source of concern. We can look at the history of Genghis Khan and admit there were one or two 'issues'.

When we look at slavery the evils or empire are obvious but people also consider the fact that many African traders were involved as well.

@UpOnTheDowns

Westernism and freedom of conscience, thought and speech being very reasons they can express those views freely, of course!

freedom of conscience, thought and speech

Very positive things. Which is exactly why we teach them to people who arrive in the U.K.

And here we go again... on a thread about what a mess Britain is in at the moment, it turns into a discussion about Churchill and whether we should feel pride or not....

It doesn't matter!

We could feel great pride about having the oldest democracy or whatever but how does that help when our current political situation is a laughing stock that is utterly stuck and cannot cope with mess it got us into?

mirialis unfortunately the Brexit debate, the state the U.K. and immigration is in is often linked to 'pride in being British'.

Exactly mousse and that is the problem!! It is totally unhelpful. We need to focus on what is and isn't working in the UK today and what we can do today to keep improving.

I know people will get cross at this article (if they've not already seen it) but it has a point. Unfortunately it is phrased in the negative - same points could be made but phrased in a positive way.

Brexit is the story of a proud former imperial power undergoing a mid-life crisis. The rest of the world is left listening to Britain’s therapy session as they drone on about their ex-spouse, the EU: When will they stop talking and just move on?

Britain’s imperial history and 45 years of membership in the EU — where London was a dominant voice — is why it is struggling to conduct diplomacy as the middling power it is now becoming. Accustomed to issuing colonial diktats or throwing its medium-sized weight around a medium-sized pond, the U.K. simply doesn’t seem to know how to play the game of give and take needed to negotiate with a far larger partner

Britain has a lesson to learn. What a global power can pass off as “exceptionalism,” for a medium-sized country simply comes across as ingratitude

www.politico.eu/article/brexit-britain-small-boring-and-stupid-theresa-may-eu-withdrawal-deal/