Would you pay back this 10k?

[cantchooseyourfamily]

I'm looking for some advice, I was really ill over the last few years and managed to get treatment overseas that cost almost £50,000. The treatment was somewhat experimental at the time but is now available on the NHS, however I couldn't afford to wait and see if it would start being offered on the NHS so we made the decision that we would pay and I would go abroad for it.

Before I went for the treatment I wasn't sure about going, was worried about leaving my children and was also worried because I was about £10,000 short with being able to pay for it. DH and I have good jobs and are very lucky, we would have been able to get hold of the last 10k within a few months and were prepared to wait until we had it before I went ahead.

However, my mother offered to give me the remaining money and was insistent it was a gift, I asked several times over the following months if I should pay it back and she was insistent that it was fine, it was a gift, she wanted to help, etc. At that point we had the 10k and could have given it back, no issue.

Not that it necessarily matters but she's fairly well off with different companies and a few properties. This all happened over a year ago, I've moved on, am doing well health wise and have not thought about the money much, other than to feel grateful. Now out of nowhere she has messaged saying she's having business problems and wants the money back. I'm so upset, I hadn't factored this in, have my own stuff going on have made investments and purchases this year that I would not have done had I thought this was a loan rather than a gift. If I don't give it to her the family fall out will be huge, with my sister's and mother likely disowning me. On the other hand I think it's a rubbish way to treat me. There's so much more to the backstory but I wasn't raised by my mum and had very little to do with her until I was in my 20's, didn't meet my sister's until they were older and so on. I'm quite sure this would be the end of our fragile relationship but don't know if it might be for the best anyway. I couldn't imagine gifting my children a house deposit or sum of money to help with there wedding or medical treatment and then asking for it back a year later.

I'm very upset and wondering if I should just pay it back or not?

I also can't help remembering times over the last few years when she has paid for very expensive holidays and bought cars and things for her other children, none of which bothered me at the time, I didn't need anything from her and am a bit older. I can't help thinking she won't be asking for those gifts back from her other children and it's just another way in which I'm treated very differently.

I'm adopted, too. I understand your feelings of abandonment. We all have them to one extent or another.

I have chosen to NOT try to locate my family for many reasons, one being that I wouldn't want to be in the situation that you are in.

I'm going to be blunt, so please forgive me. But I would rather not have them in my life at all than be put in the position you are in, having to accept crumbs from the 'family' table. I'm not saying you necessarily get to expect equal treatment in material things, but if you cannot be fully accepted as an equal emotional member of her family, then perhaps you'd be better off without any contact at all.

I'm glad you are seeing your counselor as soon as you can. I hope you are able to work through this.

one of which says she has never had 10k in her life to gift to anyone and is now saying she didn't even know the money was transferred.

First it was a gift, then it was a 'loan', now she's saying she has no idea how you even got the money in the first place.

I'd be very, very careful how I responded, if I responded at all. It sounds as if she's setting things up to indicate that the money was taken without her permission. In essence, that you somehow 'stole' it. This would make sense if she's trying to shift blame because her business partners are accusing her of taking the money from the business without their agreement.

I hope you've kept all the texts and emails in which she's acknowledged giving you the money!

I'd be very, very careful how I responded, if I responded at all. It sounds as if she's setting things up to indicate that the money was taken without her permission. In essence, that you somehow 'stole' it. This would make sense if she's trying to shift blame because her business partners are accusing her of taking the money from the business without their agreement.

This crossed my mind too.

OP, not the same thing at all but I've been in a financial "relationship" of sorts with someone who would make up allsorts (re-write history, meddle in legal affairs etc) when we didn't do what she wanted. It was hard to tell what she actually believed had happened and what was just to try and manipulate money out of us.

My advice would be, even if you want to pay it back, DO NOT engage 'financially' for some time (if at all) as you could lose it with absolutely no gain if she's not living in reality at the moment. Even if you have evidence etc that you're paying it back, just leave it for now as the money will end up being a casualty at her whims, and wasted!

Wow. Just wow. I have RTFT and initially was on the fence thinking she just got into dire straits needing a quick cash injection and was hoping for a return of favour. But that was far too generous. This is definitely blowing up, and whilst legally you don't have any need to return the money (unless it counts as embezzlement in which case they might come after it) it seems that the smart thing to do is to not get dragged down in this quagmire any more than you have to if you can afford to pay it back.

Hope you sort this out, and be careful with the future relationship. She sounds unhinged enough to act like this never happened in a year or two after it has been paid back and you keen enough to keep engaging with her... Before similar blows up again.

I’ve just checked back to the thread and I’m sorry you’re struggling so much emotionally with this. As the daughter of a narcissist, I do understand the pain and I understand you feel the pain is so much worse because you are an outsider.

I am not wanting to dispute that at all. I just want to give you the other side of the story. I want you to realise how you may well actually have been advantaged by not being part of that woman’s life all your life. I know that adoption is a trauma and often leaves massive abandonment issues. So I’m not trying to minimise your experience. Just to give you a POV you may not have thought about.

You had adopted parents, who loved you. They taught you about secure attachments. They taught you as best they could to love yourself. They gave you the best start they could and loved you freely. Your birth mother is totally incapable of doing this. I get you are sitting there as an outsider seeing what she has given her other children in comparison to you. But at what cost to them? Do you really think they are happy and undamaged?

I can tell you categorically they are not. If she can gaslight you to this extent, do not think for one moment she hasn’t acted similarly to her children all their lives. The difference between you and them is that you have only had to suffer this in adulthood. Had she not given you up, you would have had to suffer this all your life as a little and confused child. You would not be the strong and capable woman you are today, capable of wholeheartedly loving your children and capable of being a separate person from her.

Perhaps she lavishes resents on them, but why? My guess is 1) to assuage her guilt for being a shitty parent, which she doesn’t want to acknowledge and 2) to keep her children under her control. She will have taught them at an early age that she is in power and compliance is paramount.

I see she has assigned you as scapegoat. In reality, you are the one, who got away. So please give yourself that gift of being the one, who got away. You can choose to walk away from her and your siblings if necessary however painful for you. Or you can choose to stay in contact with her / the children whilst protecting yourself emotionally. That may not seem possible right now, which indicates you have more work to do with your therapist. But perhaps this will be your goal.

I am low contact with my mother. She has completely rewritten history as well. I am chronically ill and disabled. She just wants my brother and I “to get on”, which is impossible as he is a physical threat to me. She blames me for this yet was right there when my brother pushed me over for no reason, when he drove off with me (disabled and unable to move) leaning on his car so I fell to the ground. According to her this was all my fault. She talks to him on loud speaker when in the room with me making me feel physically sick. She scoffs at my fear. She disbelieves all the threats of violence. He’s older and I’m in my 40’s so this is never going to change.

And she has rewritten the history of his bullying me to me bullying him in childhood. This is because she didn’t protect me and let him throw me around like a rag doll, imprion me in rooms, suffocate me and other abuse, which has stayed with me all my life and made me feel less than and hate my inferior not quite female body (according to him). I know he had his reasons to destroy me. But he needed to deal with his own demons and at his age, he never will.

All this to say you have no idea what goes on behind closed doors when parenting is so dysfunctional. My father was a workaholic so often out of the house and was of the generation, who didn’t get involved in parenting and my mother taught my brother and me to compete. A position he was unable to move on from.

Your siblings may have also learnt this too and they will have learnt to manipulate and gas light. So please tread carefully with them as well. Even the more reasonable one could turn on you. You do not know what influence your mother has on her.

Earlier I posted that I didn’t understand not paying it back if she’s landed herself in a legal mess trying to help you and you still have that much sat in savings so didn’t need it anyway.

And usually I’d say do the right thing irrespective of bad behaviour etc but in this case I’ve changed my mind. She isn’t just being rude / snappy / unfair which can happen in all families - but asking you to deal with the company & implying you’re a criminal? She sounds unhinged. I’m sorry you’re going through this as I assume you’ve been through some major medical stress too.

I would tell her it was a gift from her - she made clear it was a gift when you offered it back & you don’t see any need to be involved with the company. Say you consider the matter closed.

I’m sorry - she sounds absolutely horrific.

Fantastic post mummyoflittledragon. I'm sorry you went through so much

Also re the person who commented they might come after the money if it was not handled correctly - that’s not true at all. If a Director steals £10k from their company and spends it in Debenhams - no one gets to go claim it back from Debenhams.
It’s her assets they come for - not yours.

Might it be possible to take a step back and either get legal advice and let a lawyer handle it or your husband. I still think you should get legal advice whatever.

On reflection I agree with Bumble. The risk in paying it back to her with a paper trail would be to set up an implication that you were party to any wrongdoing on her part in her relationship with the company.

Your DM's wanting you to deal direct with the company may actually be a blessing in disguise, as long as in so doing you never infer in any way that you have or had any financial relationship / dealings with the company. Just keep referring them back to your DM.

I suspect that the divorce and the dividing up the assets has a part to play in this. He is probably saying that the 10k should come out of her share.

Anyway regardless of this, you need to detach and accept that she's emotionally incapable of giving you what you crave. Whether that is a nasty, manipulative part of her or whether it's because she's a product of her own upbringing, it doesn't matter, she's not going to give you what you want emotionally. It's best if you can accept that and with the help of your therapist, give up your dream of being accepted into the family and being treated well. Accept that this is nothing to do with you, it's everything to do with her. Obviously easier said than done, but work towards going NC with your therapist. If you have no expectations, she can't disappoint. Same with your siblings.
I know you said you were almost at that point then she raised your hopes with this latest stunt, then immediately trampled over them again. Now you know that it's futile trying for any relationship so time to detach totally and go NC.

Do not add worries about being implicatd in any illegal wrong doings to your burden.

You have done nothing wrong and bear no responsibility for anything she is trying to imply. As an accountant, had a director transferred company money to a family member it would be treated legally as a director's loan. Absolutely no involvement with the family member.

Textbook of a narc that she has rewritten history by saying now that she never had that much money, had no idea how you got it etc. I'm assuming that was because you questioned her on it instead of immediately agreeing to pay it back with no mention that she'd insisted she didn't want it back until now.

I get it totally but there's no way I would be paying a penny back. You are planning to pay it back as you are a decent person who doesn't want to put her at a disadvantage or feel that something was gifted grudgingly (even if after the fact). I wouldn't be surprised if she gave it to you solely so she could bask in your gratitude and be able to tell other people about it with the intention that she'd get it back when that feeling had worn off. If you think she won't hold it against you if it's all paid back, think again.

Disengage. She shown you yet again how she feels about you. Believe her this time. I'd let her take me to court, not that it'd get that far.

If she never had that money ever then she clearly can't have gifted or loaned it to you anyway, as she never had it...

Must have appeared in your bank account by some miracle

I hope you're ok OP. I imagine this may have blown up even more over the last couple of days and sending you and hoping life is peaceful and you're able to make whichever decision works for you and move on from this.

I’m sorry you’re going through this OP. You’ve been perfectly reasonable. Try to put her out of your mind now as she clearly doesn’t bring any thing positive.

I'm so sorry, OP, that you've had that treatment from someone from whom you had every right to expect so much better.

I would look into some legal advice - some solicitors give 30 mins free advice over the phone - and then decide where to go from there.

What would happen if you decided not to pay the money back and told your mother so?

I agree with Bumble's suggestion. Write to her (not the company) saying it was a gift, which she insisted on several occasions did not need to be paid back. Then tell her the matter is closed.

MummyofLittleDragon's post made sense to me - despite the feelings of rejection, in a way you are lucky that you escaped her growing up. I have no doubt though that it is hard to see it this way.

From your last update I would return the money even if you have to get a loan.

However I would send her the money in cheque form along with a letter. Say in the letter that you have raised the funds with difficulty as she was clear on several occasions that it was a gift, not a loan. That you felt the gift of money for life altering treatment was your mothers way of telling you that you are loved and accepted as a family member. Now that she is expecting the gift to now be returned you believe this not to be the case. As a result you are very sad.

This will then force her to take the money from you, rather than you simply transferring it. If you no longer have a cheque book, I’d get one specifically for the purpose and give reason for the delay in giving her the money as “needing a couple of weeks to raise the funds”.

Do you have anything in writing ie text or email about the money being a gift? I’d also reference that in your letter along with a quote.

I’d want to write more but I wouldn’t. I’m so sorry you’ve been left feeling this way. None of this is your fault. What the woman you gave birth to is doing is very wrong. She and her children don’t sound very nice. The request for money really does say more about them then it does about you.

You have a husband and children, who love you. Now would be a really good time to focus on eachother. ((Hugs))

This. Absolutely this.

So she gave you money from the company, not her personal money. And the company is co-owned by other relatives. Our accountant would be having kittens if we did this - no wonder she wants it back! If she could pay it back to the company she could pass it off as a director's loan maybe.
Anyway this makes it all more complicated (aside from the complex family situation) so you are best to sort it out with the company rather than her direct, as she suggested.
Perhaps she gave it in good faith and is now massively panicking. Perhaps she has misused company funds in other ways too and is now being held to account. So it may not be a straightforward reflection of her feelings towards you - she gave you money and now she wants it back. It could be, she gave you money that wasn't hers to give and now she needs it back to put things right. (Which doesn't really help you I'm afraid).

How are you getting on @cantchooseyourfamily ? I hope your siblings have been supportive.

Given the direction that this has taken, in that your mother seems to be setting a scenario up where she accuses you of stealing the money, you might want to speak to a legal professional before you respond to anything else.

She's very conveniently 'forgotten' taking the money out and giving it to you, so you can't rely on any repaying of the gift being properly accounted for either. And you don't want to end up under investigation yourself, or to risk any kind of investigation of your own company.

No, I wouldn't pay this money back.

This woman sounds despicable and she's treated you appallingly over the years. I'd block her and anyone tied to her and move on.