Would you pay back this 10k?

[cantchooseyourfamily]

I'm looking for some advice, I was really ill over the last few years and managed to get treatment overseas that cost almost £50,000. The treatment was somewhat experimental at the time but is now available on the NHS, however I couldn't afford to wait and see if it would start being offered on the NHS so we made the decision that we would pay and I would go abroad for it.

Before I went for the treatment I wasn't sure about going, was worried about leaving my children and was also worried because I was about £10,000 short with being able to pay for it. DH and I have good jobs and are very lucky, we would have been able to get hold of the last 10k within a few months and were prepared to wait until we had it before I went ahead.

However, my mother offered to give me the remaining money and was insistent it was a gift, I asked several times over the following months if I should pay it back and she was insistent that it was fine, it was a gift, she wanted to help, etc. At that point we had the 10k and could have given it back, no issue.

Not that it necessarily matters but she's fairly well off with different companies and a few properties. This all happened over a year ago, I've moved on, am doing well health wise and have not thought about the money much, other than to feel grateful. Now out of nowhere she has messaged saying she's having business problems and wants the money back. I'm so upset, I hadn't factored this in, have my own stuff going on have made investments and purchases this year that I would not have done had I thought this was a loan rather than a gift. If I don't give it to her the family fall out will be huge, with my sister's and mother likely disowning me. On the other hand I think it's a rubbish way to treat me. There's so much more to the backstory but I wasn't raised by my mum and had very little to do with her until I was in my 20's, didn't meet my sister's until they were older and so on. I'm quite sure this would be the end of our fragile relationship but don't know if it might be for the best anyway. I couldn't imagine gifting my children a house deposit or sum of money to help with there wedding or medical treatment and then asking for it back a year later.

I'm very upset and wondering if I should just pay it back or not?

I also can't help remembering times over the last few years when she has paid for very expensive holidays and bought cars and things for her other children, none of which bothered me at the time, I didn't need anything from her and am a bit older. I can't help thinking she won't be asking for those gifts back from her other children and it's just another way in which I'm treated very differently.

I see two ways out of this:

1. Pay back and NC .
2. Don't pay back and NC.

The result will be the same - NC. But you choose what will make YOU more comfortable, what will give you peace of mind. The fact that you have paid it back or the fact that you didn't.

I’m sorry—that’s really crap :( Family, money and business never mix well in my experience. Your mother sounds like a classic narcissist, so she won’t understand or care that she’s hurt you by asking for it back. I’d try and repay as quickly as possible, more for my own benefit, as I wouldn’t want feel like I owed anything to someone like that but then I’d have to put in writing to her (and her business associates) that this money was offered to you, not asked for. If your mother’s having money trouble, she could have come to you and asked for help; however, instead because of her pride and lack of communication skills she has destroyed any relationship between you. Then get yourself out of dodge and away from her selfishness. Xx

Op your mother is completely in the wrong here, however you have taken the high road and offered to return the money in instalments. You have been more than reasonable and there is nothing further you can do. Your dm’s response is no reflection on you, you have behaved impeccably.

I know this must be very difficult but I think the only thing you can do now is step back from this relationship. Your mother has never been there for you and it seems as though that will not change. Frankly you deserve better. Sorry op.

Your mother's troubles are of her own making. Not your problem to solve.

I'd go NC and let them get on with sorting out their own problems. Look after you and yours x

B

I still have a RTFM t-shirt from think geek, somewhere, though dh is more likely to wear it.

B.
I have read majority & am so sorry OP.
A lot of posters have good advice. Your “mother” seems self absorbed. A gift from a parent is morally, “a gift” not to be returned. It is the WAY she has gone about everything. If she had just turned around and been honest saying she needed funds to get out of this situation, then you would have helped her. But it’s the demanding and the victim mentality which is unacceptable.
I do agree with Jenny17. Because you have now offered to pay back it makes it look like it was intended as a loan. (I have a similar legal battle going on with my ex). Unfortunately, unless you have evidence in texts, writing, emails etc. It would be hard to contest and really depend upon the judge if taken to court.
BUT, because you have offered to pay back in installments it would be fine for you to do it this way as you are offering a solution. In court it would be very hard to demand all the money back in one go. Therefore she will have to like it or lump it.
She should have been clear and transparent and done a document if it was from company funds. The family probably did not until after the deed was done.
The way you have handled it, is the same as the way I would have done. Withdraw communication from her, especially if drink and abusive, and just deal with the accountant. Get rid of the feeling of being beholden to her ASAP and go LC or NC. Toxic. You cannotvreason with someone who is unreasonable.
Good luck xx

If it was a gift then...it’s a gift.
However - I wouldn’t want to ever leave my mother without sink would help out as much as I could.
It’s a bit immoral not to, TBH

It’s a bit immoral not to, TBH

I'd say it's pretty immoral to abandon your first child, which is what OP's "mother" did to her.

OP has no moral obligation to this woman.

Always B!

I still stand by my feeling that if it were me, I would not want to be beholden to that woman any more.

Re. the "was there a need to accept the money" - the money from the mother facilitated the OP getting the treatment for her degenerative illness quicker than she would otherwise have managed by herself - often the earlier you treat, the better the outcome, so yes, I'd say there was genuine "need" to accept the offering to get the best out of the treatment.

As such, there is no need to pay back a "gift" - but back to my first point, I just couldn't keep it now, it's been tainted forever. :(

Emotions aside- her offer brought your decision to have treatment forward, it didn’t change the treatment you had. Having it quicker may ( i guess) have been beneficial to you. You would have had the same treatment a few months later had she not paid, with your DHs bonus. I think you repay- over a few months etc at your ability to pay & go NC. You accepted her offer of help, now she needs the favour returned. Do it & cut her off (emotions back in ) - I’ll, in recovery or fully healthy- stress & strife is something we can all do without

I'm in a quite an emotional state now, it's so lovely reading comments from you all, especially the ones where posters are really getting the back story and the emotional abuse that has gone on over the years, I can only assume that many of you have had similar relationships

I could give so many examples of her behaviour but it would only make you all question why I was even still having any communication with her. All I can say is it's incredibly difficult to walk away, you desperately want to make it work.

I've had therapy for almost 2 years mainly to deal with my issues surrounding my mother, abandonment and feelings of inadequacies. Unfortunately my therapist is on a 3 week vacation but I have a session booked for when she returns - she's going to love this latest drama 😂

I had thought I had reached a point of being able to accept what she could offer and not ask for more than she was willing to give - and I don't mean this in a monetary sense. I had accepted that I would never get a birthday card, never mind a gift, whilst my siblings would get lpads, cars and trips abroad (despite them being late teens, early twenties). I had accepted that my children would never be acknowledged on their birthdays or at Christmas, that she would make plans to see them and simply not turn up, that she would not have the 'emotional energy' to speak to me for months at a time despite the fact that nothing had happened. I had honestly reached a point of not caring, of knowing that our fragile relationship was on her terms and I could either accept what she was offering or decline but that nothing I said or tried to do would change her overall behaviour towards me.

This gift for my treatment meant so much. Not because I needed the money because I didn't, she knew I didn't, but she was so insistent and it made me feel loved and like part of the family. It seemed a normal thing to do, a parent helping a child with a large expense when they were obviously comfortable enough to do so.

Your mother sounds highly narcissistic. She clearly can’t handle the guilt of giving you up and is projecting that onto you. By treating you badly I think she is telling you how she feels about herself. Not being able to deal with the emotional stuff is telling.

I’m a daughter of a narcissist. She doesn’t believe in emotions. She brought me up but was not there for me at an emotional level and I didn’t know what unconditional love was until I was well into adulthood.

I’m not asking for answers or prying. Just looking at self care until your therapist returns so please don’t think I’m asking for answers - these are for you to you. Were you perhaps fostered or adopted or had a very caring adult presence as a child? Could you call on them either physically talk to them or remember the feeling you had when around them? Do you have a secure relationship with any family or perhaps your in-laws?

Yes I was adopted when I was very, very young. My adoptive parents are no longer around.

I have a very good relationship with my in-laws and my DH and I have a great marriage. He is in agreement with most posters that we shouldn't keep the money because it's no longer being willingly given and we don't want something that the giver doesn't want us to have. (Hope that makes sense!) But we are in agreement that it's unreasonable for our finances to be hit so severely out of nowhere. Our actual loan for my business needs to be prioritised, I have upwards of 10 staff members employed by the company and I'm not willing to jeopardise their livelihoods if I use the funds for repayment of this gift rather than repayment of the business loan and it goes wrong.

I haven't replied to my mother's latest messages, one of which says she has never had 10k in her life to gift to anyone and is now saying she didn't even know the money was transferred. I literally dont even know how to reply to this. She transferred the money whilst in my house and watched me transfer the full amount to the clinic, book my flights and pack my suitcase. I thanked her on at least 3 seperate occasions after this and offered to pay the money back, the last time being around May time (about 3 months after the trearment). I'm genuinely concerned that she's able to sit there and rewrite what happened so drastically.

I haven't heard anything from my siblings or her husband yet and am not sure if they will actually take part in this new fantasy my mother has created, I'm hopeful they may be a little more reasonable.

I may message the sister that I'm closest to over the next few days and ask how she is to see what damage has been done to that relationship.

Thanks again everyone.

Op really sorry to read all of this. I think given her rewriting of history etc you will never be rid of this and so I personally would give her the money (not repay as it was a gift - I would consider it a reciprocal gift) in order to bring it all to an end. What you then do re contact is your decision and should simply be based on whatever will allow your physical and mental health to be best protected.
My fear if you do nothing is an unholy continuance of her crap and family crap - likely only to get worse.
If there is a feeling she is bullying you into this I personally would need to rationalise that by remembering she gifted you money and you accepted it. That would help me through the madness.
This is such a personal issue though . .
If you do gift her a sum you need to set everything out in writing to her very clearly - the basis on which you are doing so and that you do not and never did ‘owe’ her any sum and that she is wrong about the circs of original gift.
Whatever happens I really do wish you good luck and I am sorry she has been Such a nightmare.

Wow how can people behave like this.

I agree with your husband. Pay it back but on your terms. A 'loan' to children with no written contract is a soft loan and unenforceable by law so she is lucky if you agreed to repay any of it.

She's obviously got herself in a pickle. But what does she mean by her new story, that her dh did it or you stole it?

What Perodot1 said, BUT I'd also be throwing in maybe sis can sell the car you bought at about the same time to help out the family?

It is irrelevant what else she has spent her money on. You had it, had the benefit of it and now she is in need of it. You can afford it, pay it back. You do not have to continue to associate with her though.

What a horrible woman your “mother” is, OP. If you’re able, you should consider walking away from the whole lot of them. She’s got some sort of business and personal problems going on and has clearly decided that it must be someone else’s fault, and that someone else is you.

She sounds like she’ll gaslight yiubajd everyone else around you. I’d leave her to it and go NC. If she doesn’t “remember” the money transfer as a gift then she must have organised this money to get to you some other way, she must have a record of the “loan”. But there’s no point in going down that route as she will twist the logic and dissemble and lie to make herself feel better and paint you as the bad guy.

Horrible as it is, I’d take the £10k as her lifetime’s contribution to you as a parent and cut her off. That’s a cheap deal for her, we all know how much children cost emotionally and in cash terms. She gave you £10k and still managed to make you feel bad, unloved and outside the family. She’s not worth your time or attention. Pay her back in tiny instalments if it helps you to wipe the slate clean, but don’t feel bad if you decide not to prioritise her or repay it at all.

I think she needs help now for whatever reasons and regardless of who she gave what to.... I suspect others have let her down.

I would be inclined to let her know of your circumstances and just ask if you can drip feed it back to her via repayments (all recorded of course via internet banking transfers).

I think the original situation was very emotive for all concerned and that the full message given or received. Your health was paramount to everyone at the time the offer was made. And was made in good faith. Chin up.

sorry that should read that the full message was not given nor received....

Op

What if your mother cannot / will not do what you ask of her? Not the money, that’s a symptom of what’s wrong not the problem itself.

At what point do you decide, for your own protection, that you can no longer afford to give her so much power over you? It’s almost irrelevant whether she is overwhelmed by guilt, is under pressure financially or if she’s just a horrible person. You can’t really know her motives (she may not know them herself) and you cannot make her love you or treat you as she does her other children.

My FIL grew up in very similar circumstances as you (given up for adoption) and was totally rejected by his birth family as a baby. His mother died young after giving him up (her parents would not iterate an illegitimate child coming back to there house) and only by a bizarre coincidence did he find her family later in life. He has spent years banging his head off a brick wall trying to be accepted by her family and to be treated as any other grandchild / cousin / nephew by her relatives over the years. The whole thing has had an awful impact on his self esteem and mental health. He is full of repressed anger at them for abandoning him - yet he daren’t let rip as he fears losing the tenuous connection that they do have, and he has no one else. It hurts him so much. He is the last to hear about weddings / funerals / new babies. He’s left out of family get togethers. Yet he keeps on talking about his cousins and aunts etc, as if he was really part of their family, because he craves that so much. It breaks my heart TBH and I think they are a bunch of selfish pricks.

So I don’t know, OP, what is the least painful option. Continue to swallow the anger and hurt and play happy families? Or protect yourself by accepting that you will not get what you need (deserve) from this relationship, and walking away.

This pattern of behaviour is familiar to me, particularly the complete ease with which history is rewritten. My mother used to transfer large sums of money to me with h great fanfare from an account controlled by a family “retainer” ( think trustee or similar). I was a teenager at the time. She would however then March me to the bank and make me transfer it to her own account- she wanted to look to the work like she was giving me money from my father’s estate but in reality making sure she got it. I never saw his will (yes I guess I could look it up) but the sheer toxic manipulation over money is not worth it- I make my own money instead.

I had honestly reached a point of not caring, of knowing that our fragile relationship was on her terms and I could either accept what she was offering or decline but that nothing I said or tried to do would change her overall behaviour towards me.

and that's why she gave you the money.

@cantchooseyourfamily

Your latest two updates are really sad

I guess your other siblings weren’t adopted, which might explain the disparity in treatment. Either way she sounds unhinged. Or maybe she believes her own bullshit.

For your own sanity I’d have to go NC. I did it myself with a toxic narcissistic relative and the relief was immense.

You say you have a fragile relationship with her, though still took the money when she offered it. No you are using the fragile relationship issue as a reason not to pay back the money? Perhaps you can meet in the middle and pay back over a few years? Or swallow your pride and pay it off in one go and forget about it.