that it has just hit me that this time next year I wont be an EU citizen

[garethsouthgatesmrs]

I know it's yet another brexit thread but it genuinely just hit me that it's actually happening THIS YEAR! I am truly gutted. Would love someone with political knowledge to come on and reassure me that it actually won't be that bad. I have 3 children who have to live with the repercussions.

buble is on jules holland-this has to be a good sign

Opportunity should not be a birthright and that applies on a worldwide basis, not just within nations. As far as I’m concerned, if someone has the tenacity to pick themselves and their families up and go elsewhere for a better life, whether that be in the UK or wherever, then more power to them. Why should someone without that drive have opportunity as their birthright just because she randomly happened to be born in Milton Keynes as opposed to Kabul? And no, I don’t think immigrants should be eternally grateful, anymore than someone who happened to be born here in the “luck of the draw.” It matters not where you start from imo - it’s where you end up and how you get there.

@Pa10ma

It would be nice if everyone across the world had exactly the same opportunities and advantages, but they don’t. That’s not the world we live in. And Britain alone can’t give them.

If someone has the tenacity to pick themselves and their families up and go elsewhere for a better life, whether that be in the UK or wherever, then more power to them

It’s all very virtuous saying that, but it’s unrealistic. We don’t all want the same things. And why is it that people can’t strive to succeed and improve their homeland, instead of looking for somewhere else to provide it?

Ariadne
And why is it that people can’t strive to succeed and improve their homeland, instead of looking for somewhere else to provide it?
Syria?
Iraq?
Somalia?
Yemen?
South Sudan?
DRC?
As that is where a lot of the refugees come from?

@Ta1kinPeace

I’d like to know what you think we can realistically do to make a difference?

Ariadne
I’d like to know what you think we can realistically do to make a difference?
(a) stop selling weapons to the folks bombing several of the countries on that list
(b) let the refugees in and let them work - a syrian farmer earning $10 a month will turn into a veg picker earning £1000 a month for example

Fund overseas aid.

Trade fairly with other countries.

@MrsAriadneOliver
We don’t all want the same things
I think, fundamentally, we do all want the same things - security, food, love, and a feeling of belonging. It's just that some people decide that for them to achieve those things, they have to deny others the opportunity. To use your cake analogy, some people think the cake isn't big enough so they make sure they have enough (even though the cake may be big enough). If the amount of raw ingredients (sensible government tax policies) were increased, the cake would be big enough for all, if it's not already.

What does "trade fairly" mean, since you cited it as a benefit?
@Moussemoose

I think Birchill was saying that UK should have to compete harder to have access to low income country markets, and should have fewer barriers for them to export to UK.

Those barriers can't be tariffs (EU barely has any for low income countries), so I presume Birchill meant regulatory barriers.

If there is not enough space for everybody at the table
get a bigger table

What does 'Trade fairly" mean?

I don't want to tell you.

Rest assured I have researched it in detail, I am an expert in economics, I fully understand the nuances of international trade. I could tell you I just don't want to.

*Gove was talking to NFU today, about post-Brexit benefits of less regulation in UK agriculture. I can't find full text of his speech anywhere, though.

An article prepared for Minnesota federal reserve & linked to other day (somewhere on MN) said that Brexit would benefit UK if post-Brexit UK dramatically increased opportunities for foreign ppl/corporations to invest in UK. I guess that means less regulation on who gets to invest, and less tax on their profits?

Stop selling weapons to the folks bombing several of the countries on that list

I agree with you.

Let the refugees in and let them work

How many refugees? Because we can’t take in everyone who wants to come. Are we talking millions? Where will we house them? Can we properly educate them and give them all adequate medical care? Can the NHS cope with the influx?

How will you define a refugee? As opposed to someone who isn’t necessarily in danger of their life, but just wants a better life abroad. How can we possibly say that the UK or Europe can be the home of everyone who wants to be here? It just won’t work.

Aid, and trying to help folks in struggling countries is something I’m in favour of.

• we take far fewer refugees than many countries and we are not talking about millions.
• most refugees want to return home when it is safe to do so.
• you can't help someone to stay in a warzone.

Fundamentally, we do all want the same things - security, food, love, and a feeling of belonging

Indeed, but it’s not that simple. People have very different ways of going about it. And those differences matter!

My younger brother is gay. He couldn’t live peacefully in most parts of the Middle East, because LGBT rights are so severely curtailed there. That isn’t the case in Britain and nor should it be. It’s really difficult to manage such huge cultural and religious differences and for people who so fundamentally disagree with each other’s lives and morals to live peacefully alongside one another.

A functional society needs to have a broad consensus on certain issues.

There are 28 million displaced people in the world. The UK takes a tiny fraction and even the EU as a whole takes a much smaller proportion than other countries. Eg the Syrian refugee crisis, neighbouring countries took the mass majority. Media has whipped up false stories millions are coming to Europe. The thing that annoys me is it only takes a quick google to look on migration sites to learn these figures. Yet some swallow the lies fed by media with an agenda.

Typo, 68 million displaced, not 28 million displaced people.

Media has whipped up false stories millions are coming to Europe

A million did enter Europe in 2015

a million did enter Europe in 2015 confused

In 2015 at the height of the Syrian crisis a million refugees came. Note the world million, not millions. Germany took about 800,000. The UK granted asylum to about 15,000 refugees in total from all countries that year. There were about 5.6 million Syrian refugees displaced to other counties. Over 4 million were displaced on neighbouring countries such as Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan.

The graph in this post comes from the government’s own website and shows in 2017 there were approx 26,000 asylum applications in the UK and approx 14,000 were granted. Figures all from this government site www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigration-statistics-october-to-december-2017/how-many-people-do-we-grant-asylum-or-protection-to

This article says tens of thousands of migrants came to Europe in 2018, not millions. www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/15/what-current-scale-migration-crisis-europe-future-outlook?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

I would hope countries do offer an humanitarian response and offer asylum.

I have been reading some Syrian refugees are now returning to Syria too.

Finally,

“A a true account of the current situation would recognise that most refugees still live in developing countries, that a fairer sharing of the impact within Europe and more broadly is needed, and that greater compassion should be shown towards those who need protection, not only from the Channel’s perils, but from earlier suffering”

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/03/the-guardian-view-on-channel-crossings-a-failure-of-humanity-not-controls?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Note the world million, not millions

I did note it. You said the media has whipped up false stories millions are coming to Europe

And a million did come.

Our findings confirm a negative relationship between education and voting Leave: the higher the level of one’s education, the lower the likelihood of them voting Leave.

Younger people were more likely to vote remain, and as it happens, 50 per cent of young people now attend university. That's the reason why more remainers have a degree, and it's nothing to do with intelligence.

A few decades ago 7-10 per cent obtained a degree. The rest went to polytechnics, technical colleges, straight into work etc. In many cases they learned, to the same level, the same skills and knowledge which would now be part of a degree.

greater compassion should be shown towards those who need protection, not only from the Channel’s perils, but from earlier suffering

Earlier suffering, yes.

From the channel’s perils, absolutely not.

Unless France is now a war zone as well? Or the other parts of Europe they may have passed through to reach France?

On no account should anyone be encouraged to make that journey and enter illegally.

@Itinerary

I’d never though of it from that angle before.

The EU is very nationalistic despite not being a nation. It has contrived its own flag (which appears at every opportunity), anthem, motto, laws, currency, presidents, passport, annual celebration day and so-called "EU citizens". It has its own outer borders, which exclude the "Other" no less than any country which (as is normal) controls its own borders.

This whole notion of “border control” and then there will be more to go around is a red herring, as far as I’m concerned. You could halt all immigration, but the malaise that exists at the heart of British society would still be there.

I renovate properties a fair bit and the difference between British and non-British builders/ electricians / plumbers you name it is staggering. It’s borne out time and time again. They have the same skill set, but the difference is attitude. British workmen seem to think it’s standard practice to not show up for weeks (because another job comes up) and their whole attitude seems to be that they’re doing you a favour. Yes there’s the odd great one, but the overall difference is stark.

I had one recently on a major renovation who didn’t turn up for 8 months, after completing half a job, Following legal action, he eventually showed up and gave me a whole sob story about how he’d got a girl pregnant on a ONS; couldn’t stand the woman; wanted nothing to do with the baby; has negotiated only paying something like £10 per week with the CSA. He said that if “it” (the child) ever wants to find him as a teen, he’ll say “you’ve managed 16 years without me, you can manage the next 16.” This was his excuse and he expected me to sympathise with him!

Of course, he was the first to bemoan “foreigners” for taking the jobs in “his country.”

Ok this is just one anecdote, but I see this kind of attitude time and time again. British people with no self-respect, yet we worry about immigrants?