that it has just hit me that this time next year I wont be an EU citizen

[garethsouthgatesmrs]

I know it's yet another brexit thread but it genuinely just hit me that it's actually happening THIS YEAR! I am truly gutted. Would love someone with political knowledge to come on and reassure me that it actually won't be that bad. I have 3 children who have to live with the repercussions.

buble is on jules holland-this has to be a good sign

@Hawkinspace

I’m sure we have many more points of agreement than otherwise! I suppose I end up playing this sort of devils advocate game because it’s difficult for me to see how so many people are ‘wrong’ to have voted Leave. I see them as having different values and priorities. Each sides will need to make some concessions for the other.

You weren’t far wrong! I am Canadian too but I lived in Aarhus for a year and in Helsingborg and Uppsala too. Not the transient sort of childhood I chose for my own kids, but I was very lucky to experience so many wonderful people and places

@Quietrebel

I’m afraid we’ll have to disagree on your first point then. From my perspective, Britain seems unsure of its own identity and place in the world. From my personal experience, I don’t consider other countries morally smaller or meaner because they were confident in their values and expected me to appreciate the benefits that living in them brought me.

What kind of shit attitude am I promoting? By the way - I have every right to my opinion based on my experiences. My family didn’t suffer. I’m bewildered by that comment.

You think nationalism is precisely what's wrong in the world. I don’t agree with the ‘Little England’ mentality no - of course I’m in favour of cooperation. I’m trying to say that there’s nothing wrong in a sense of civic pride in one’s nation.

I suppose I end up playing this sort of devils advocate game because it’s difficult for me to see how so many people are ‘wrong’ to have voted Leave. I see

I think leavers can defend themselves well enough. If you don't happen to share their position, perhaps you should spend that energy defending remain! Engaging with other views, respecting them are both important - just dont forget where you stand.

@MrsAriadne
I didn't mean any disrespect but you used the word 'shunted' in an earlier post and that is quite a negative term to use- so I deduced a certain amount of suffering, that's all. I don't presume to know your background but it sounds like you are justifying nationalism. I don't think it's wrong at all to have a healthy pride in one's culture but nationalism isn't about pride, it's about a hierarchy between human beings and excluding the Other. That in my book is always wrong.

@Quietrebel

Ah, I see what you mean. I used that word because that’s how my DM describes her childhood - not necessarily in a negative way, but my grandad’s job involved a lot of travel after the war. Sometimes she wishes she’d had a more permanent home, that’s all.

As for nationalism, I absolutely agree with you there. I certainly don’t endorse any feeling of superiority to other folks. Perhaps patriotism is what I mean. Even that word seems a bit strong though. A healthy pride in one's culture, as you say.

Glad we agree 😀

I dislike pride. I prefer respect, love, admiration. Pride often leads to problems - it is one of the Deadly Sins for a reason (I’m an atheist btw), also “pride comes before a fall”, pride is often self-satisfied superiority and is an anathema to me. Love your culture, your country, your people but don’t put them above those of others. Unless you value conflict.

I have voiced this opinion before and some Mumsnet posters don’t agree with me. C’est la vie.

@cucumbergin
"Well, right now we're planning to swap our cake meet with cakes from across Europe for hiding in the corner with a dry rusk crooning "mine mine mine my precioussss"."
Wonderful evocation of Brexit made me want to laugh and cry simultaneously! Thank you

@MrsAriadneOliver Being born British doesn't give you a permanent right to vote in the UK. I was born in the UK, lived there for 35 years and am a British citizen. I don't have the right to vote.

You wrote: "From the moment I landed on Canadian soul as a permanent resident," and talked about living in many other countries. Were you resident in the UK in June 2016? Because based on the information in your posts it's not obvious that you had a legal right to vote.

Nationalism is just one method of structuring groups, which require defence against other groups. It would be nice if all humans everywhere were nice and we didn't require defence, but we do, and will do so more as the environmental effects gather pace. Nationalism, which encourages defence of one's own, is probably better than Imperialism, which is aggressive. I expect you could argue that Nationalism naturally leads to Imperialism. That's the thing with the EU, originally it was a co-operative gathering of nations to stave off imperialism. I wanted -still want, there's no reason why it should stop without us - the experiment to work.

Pride is a form of respect and love - self-respect and self-love. There's nothing wrong with it in its place, in fact some is necessary. MrsAriadne makes a lot of sense to me on this subject. I've also lived abroad, and no I didn't go over expecting a welcome and everything to be given to me on a silver platter. There is a middle way. Britain's leadership and hyper-liberal middle classes have lost it.

It is also (sorry to have 3 concurrent posts on this thread, but this is an old bugbear) very very galling indeed when the British leadership and hyper-liberal middle classes are so much more welcoming to people coming in from abroad (usually the better-off from their own countries) than to our own poorer classes! Time and time again they demonstrate that any sob story from abroad will get them digging in pockets, but ask them for decent taxes and decent public services and suddenly it's all the poorer classes' own fault, ignoring the centuries of discrimination and barriers they have to overcome, and what will they get out of it. Which brings us back neatly to Brexit.

I didn't go over expecting a welcome and everything to be given to me on a silver platter.
These are two separate points: I personally stayed in the UK because thankfully I felt very welcome and was treated fairly (any issues I may have had had over the years had nothing to do with my nationality). However, never expected things to be handed on a silver platter! I worked hard for what I have and never claimed a penny from the state. To assume wanting to be welcome = leeching is very offensive.

Nationalism is a betrayal of partisan. Someone said that recently.

@MrsAriadneOliver
Amazing coincidence re places you've lived! And a special experience to have such a breadth of knowledge. It must surely enrich your POV?
Re need for communication and concessions: I agree as to communication and being flexible. Some aspects of society that are important to me I will take other views into account but am less ready to make concessions. An example: now it's been clearly established that Brexit would leave us poorer with the most vulnerable being most affected, I would see it as morally wrong to do less than my utmost to avert it. Yet I understand people who want it have their reasons. Some people insist that since we voted for 'it' two years ago we must push ahead. I feel a strong sympathy with them, democracy is precious to them and they see it in terms of the vote, in which we exercise our freedom. I see the need to take a wider view and especially to avert harm to people as higher in the hierarchy of priorities than defending a system of government. Both matter a great deal but one more than the other.

It is also (sorry to have 3 concurrent posts on this thread, but this is an old bugbear) very very galling indeed when the British leadership and hyper-liberal middle classes are so much more welcoming to people coming in from abroad (usually the better-off from their own countries) than to our own poorer classes! Time and time again they demonstrate that any sob story from abroad will get them digging in pockets, but ask them for decent taxes and decent public services and suddenly it's all the poorer classes' own fault, ignoring the centuries of discrimination and barriers they have to overcome, and what will they get out of it.

I have to fundamentally disagree with all of this. The people I know that are more likely to support crises in other countries are also those who contribute to food banks/homelessness charities in the UK and by-and-large the ones who support a raise in taxes in the UK. The ones who are opposed to tax rises and contribute nothing to UK charities I find unlikely to put their hand in their pocket to support famine in Africa or floods in Asia either.

Also, I judge people on what they are like, not where they come from. There are idiotic unpleasant people from both the UK and other countries. I don't welcome every single person who comes from another country with open arms while dismissing all "poor" UK - born people, what an odd concept.

@DangermousesSidekick
I am uneasy reading your scorn of hyper-liberal elite. Maybe you would class me with them and yet I don't own the kind of attitudes you attribute to them

hyper-liberal middle classes are so much more welcoming to people coming in from abroad (usually the better-off from their own countries) than to our own poorer classes!
What a sweeping and insulting generalisation!
I know a lot of people, middle class & leaning to the left (but not Corbynites) who would be willing to pay more tax if it improves public services. Scapegoating the middle classes here! No, the true elite is the one pushing for a low tax economy, it's also behind that disgrace of a brexit.
Nothing there to help the struggling masses- and don't get me started on Corbyn. So many people are politically homeless now and I find it really sad that the word 'liberal' is somehow used as a put down. You talk of middle way, the only people who use 'liberal' as an insult are found on the extremes of the political spectrum.

Gosh that riled a few feathers. It wasn't a personal insult directed at anyone on this thread. Fact is we have an elite pushing a low tax economy that have been voted in by various groups of people, and middle class people wanting more and more individualised services out of the public purse. Public spirit, after years of individualism, is thin on the ground.

Fact is we have an elite pushing a low tax economy

Elite as in the Tory party, and low tax economy as in the Rees Mogg vision of post-Brexit Britain?

A low tax economy can ONLY mean a low 'services' economy (health, childcare, infrastructure etc.). It all has to be paid for somehow.
Obviously all counties governments have flaws but a government should be pushing for the best 'bang for the buck' and keep waste to a minimum. If it is seen to do that then it is more likely to be able to charge higher taxes and so deliver a very high standard of basic lifestyle. Denmark, Sweden and Germany possibly stand out most in this regard. Singapore is being promoted by some in the UK government as being good in that it is a low tax economy. You have to remember that it is around the size of greater Manchester and VERY controlled. If you have a good job things can be great, but there are many whose life is shit. Fortunately it is not cold so living in a tin hut won't mean you die of frost bite. As a model it is totally unsuited to the UK, apart from a very few who would be stinking rich.
Having citizens that have a decent 'functional' base for living (roof over their head, warm and fed) reduces the incidence of crime so is a benefit to all. Locking up 'rough sleepers' who have been caught stealing is a benefit to them, not an overall benefit to society as it costs far more to put them away, than to provide greater support on their own.

You’ve certainly ‘riled’ my feathers too. I expect I’m one of your hyper-liberal middle class. I would like to pay higher taxes - I would prefer more tax and spend. I volunteer at my local food bank and homeless centre, am a volunteer driver for hospital appointments and give to charity by direct debit. I am also an honorary official for a sports club and deliver leaflets for a political party - because I believe their policies would help the poor. I’m no saint and I expect no thanks or praise. What a load of shit you’ve spouted. I think you’re getting the ‘hyper-liberal’ middle class mixed up with selfish Tory voters.

@Mistigri

I don’t have to prove anything to you, I’m afraid.

The true elite is the one pushing for a low tax economy... nothing there to help the struggling masses- and don't get me started on Corbyn. So many people are politically homeless now

This is a huge problem now, I think. It’s so much bigger than Brexit, which is a symptom of societal dissatisfaction. We need a complete overhaul of the tax system. So many huge corporations get away with paying little or no tax. It’s appalling. You can’t take money from ordinary workers and not from the massive businesses - that’s madness. Think what we could do with that money.

I'm liberal.
I'm middle class.

I welcome people to our shores as this country has for centuries. I equally welcome initiatives, policies and actions to better the lives of our poorer citizens.

Brexit will not better their lives.