that it has just hit me that this time next year I wont be an EU citizen

[garethsouthgatesmrs]

I know it's yet another brexit thread but it genuinely just hit me that it's actually happening THIS YEAR! I am truly gutted. Would love someone with political knowledge to come on and reassure me that it actually won't be that bad. I have 3 children who have to live with the repercussions.

buble is on jules holland-this has to be a good sign

{Other nations seem to get along just fine without?}
So that would be the UNITED States of America, the USSR among other groupings that don't use union in their collective name.
That BBC clip of the Brits in Spain was a real embarrassment and made me feel a bit sick.

Yes putting people first is just pie in the sky nonsense. Fancy wanting a world where we work together and help each other. Silly me for wanting cooperation and compromise.

However, in Europe we do have the opportunity to work together, to argue, discuss, debate and try to iron out our differences through diplomacy. It's not ideal and there are issues but we have an opportunity to trade with each other and work for our mutual benefit.

We can choose isolationism and I'm all right, or we can chose compromise and cooperation.

We have the possibility of working together but you don't want it because you think you might get a slightly bigger slice of the cake if you tell the other people to piss off.

And actually we will end up with no fucking cake at all.

I’m annoyed too but we can’t change it so no point getting upset over it
It sucks but as long as you know you weren’t part of the down fall

So that would be the UNITED States of America, the USSR among other groupings that don't use union in their collective name

You think the USSR was something to aspire to? A good thing?

What about Canada?

you don't want it because you think you might get a slightly bigger slice of the cake if you tell the other people to piss off

Don’t presume to know what I want!

And I never said I wanted other people to piss off, did I?

We can choose isolationism and I'm all right, or we can chose compromise and cooperation

It doesn’t have to be one or the other. It’s not as black and white as you’re making it out to be. No reason why we can’t choose a middle ground.

Sorry just catching up.
Moose - you phrase it so much better than I could, so thankyou.

MissAraidne - Apologies if I’m mistaken, but did you not say, earlier in the thread, that you voted Remain? If so, do you not think it’s slightly ironic that a “remainer” is having to try and explain why people may have voted Brexit, in the absence of any Brexiteer being prepared / able to do so?

@AriadneOliver
In practice we have to compromise. Every EU member country does. That’s one of the benefits of it, we have a place to debate, negotiate and reach a decision. Some areas need reform- fishing for example. We need to work on reform from within. The problems don’t go away but would fester and then break out. How wars start.

And actually we will end up with no fucking cake at all

This is where we essentially differ, I think. Bear with me?

You would presumably be happy to invite anyone into your home who wanted to come and eat your cake. I presume it’s because you think of yourself as a good and moral person. So many people outside are hungry, they come rushing in and your cake is quickly devoured. And you end up with no fucking cake, as you say. Your children are hungry and you haven’t fed them first? It doesn’t matter - you’re a good, moral person after all.

In my house, I feel my first responsibility is to those inside it. My family, my children. I make sure they have an adequate slice of the cake. Maybe keep a slice back for another day if we should happen to have no food in the house. Then I look outside and see who else is hungry. There’s so many. I can’t feed them all. So I decide to feed the hungriest among them. I do what I can, but don’t neglect to care for those it is my primary responsibility to care for. I feel that’s the ultimate moral evil and a betrayal of those who depend on me.

Of course I would also hope that my neighbours do their part in feeding the hungry. But I leave that to them to organise.

This is the point I’m making. We have different ways of going about things.

MrsAriadneOliver
Nice story about cakes. Now explain how the UK as it WAS one of the richest economies have some of the most deprived areas of Europe.
Hint, it is bugger all to do with being an EU member, although ironically it is through being an EU member that collectively the UK was ranked so high, by being able to trade on good terms with our nearest neighbours for a start.
Maybe greed and incompetence of the UK government have something to do with it. The same government that is throwing billions down the toilet and getting the UK further away from actually looking after it's own citizens because basically it doesn't want to.
The ability to distribute the wealth of the UK among citizens has always been in the hands of the government of the day and all have failed to do so.
Labour in the past, as supported by unions has poured billions into failing industries without bothering to look outside the UK and appreciate that it was propping up activities that were already dead. They might have had a better social policy, but squandered so much backing lame horses rather than being radical and investing in upcoming opportunities.

@Pa10ma

I did vote Remain!

I realise it’s probably a daffy idea, but I have family and friends who’ve voted to Leave, and others to Remain. We’re a well-educated family, and I started on the thread I think because I’m tired of hearing the same old stuff about Leave voters being racist/bigoted/xenophobic. It’s such a boring generalisation, and untrue. All this fighting and name-calling doesn’t help. We’ve got to try and understand one another’s viewpoints.

Added to which, I’ve lived in twenty four countries. I can give you the laundry list. Until I got married, I never had a permanent home. Neither did my mother - she was shunted all over the globe from birth. My family are everywhere. I’ve been an immigrant many, many times over. I am not a racist. I am not xenophobic. And I fundamentally disagree with the way Britain deals with immigration. No other country is so concerned with making foreign nationals ‘feel welcome’. Residency here is a privilege, not a right.

From the moment I landed on Canadian soul as a permanent resident, I was reminded that I was lucky to be there. That it’s a beautiful country populated by tolerant, kind, hard working people, and that I was privileged to be able to join them, that Canadian values are good values. Canada owed me nothing. It wasn’t my country of birth. But after fours years, I became a citizen and I’m proud to be one. I’m grateful. I’m thankful. Immigrants to Britain should feel the same. It’s still a wonderful place to be.

@1tisILeClerc

Thanks for being so dismissive

Luckily I wasn’t talking to you

@Hawkinspace
Again, I agree with what you said. We do need to compromise.

You sound such a nice, reasonable person

MrsAraidne - well I respect your view and thank you for being prepared to be honest.

Can I ask how you were able to vote from Canada though?

We have many relatives that were displaced to Canada. We go to Toronto every year and find people generally very polite and open/ minded tbh (obviously can’t speak for them all, but that’s my impression fwiw).

I think there is perhaps a more positive mentality in Canada because, as you say, so many people have gone there to make a new life for themselves and want to seize the opportunities Canada has to offer.

However, I would say the same for any immigrant coming into the UK.

The problem in the UK is not immigration. It’s the fact that millions in deprived areas feel marginalised in society. Generations where nobody has ever worked. Do we still have the highest teen pregnancy rate in Europe - it wouldn’t surprise me? I used to work in such communities. Sadly, (it seems to me) there is some kind of malaise at the core of British society. It starts in the schools when teachers can’t count on the most basic respect or support from parents. These people have access to the education that so many come here to achieve, yet a combination of circumstances and mentality seem to stop them benefitting from it. Drugs, gangs, knives, anti-social behaviour and lack of parental responsibility - these are the issues in Britain. Not a refugee who comes here and is prepared to do whatever it takes to get by.

Before anyone comes on and says I am calling ALL British people x,y,z, I am most definitely not. What I am saying is that I spent many years working with refugees and I have rarely met an immigrant who is not an asset to this country.

I'd like to know whether @MrsAriadneOliver voted legally. She says she's lived in 24 countries and is now in Canada. How long has she been out of the country?

{Thanks for being so dismissive }
That is rather uncalled for.
The number of people immigrating to the UK is small compared to the population of the UK and far more relevant is that once here the vast majority become economically active. That is the point where your cake analogy falls down. You are assuming that a significant number of immigrants simply pitch up and claim benefits which is very far from the truth.
There are many countries where if a stranger arrives they are shown hospitality and practically forced to take a meal with them, even if it means that the following day they may have to go short. Obviously this would not be sustainable in the long term but is indicative of a generous spirit.

Immigration is just a distraction from austerity, which exacerbated existing divisions because, like Brexit, its worst impact was on those who could least afford it.

Basically, it's not about whether that Polish software engineer or that Spanish nurse will eat your cake. Or that Romanian bus driver.

It's whether the Home counties want to share their cake with Hull.

Pa10ma I work I an inner city and my experiences are very similar to your.

Not everyone falls into clear category but as a generalisation most immigrants feel they owe the country something and work hard to contribute. Within white, working class culture we have some serious, deep seated issues, particularly with young men.

The government will not fund or help these communities. They have been abandoned by successive governments and austerity.

Immigration is not the issue it is just the distraction.

So are we saying that Brexit is all about immigration (and refugees )?

I know Brexiters repeatedly decline to share their reasons for wanting to leave the EU, saying that they have no need to explain. I get that - they won. Job done. But... if they could explain and convince us that there are valid reasons then we could, perhaps, come together. Currently I don’t understand at all why anyone would want to leave the EU, apart from for reasons of fierce nationalism. Is this where we are? Is it all about nationalism? If so, I’m afraid I, and many millions, can never get behind Brexit.

@MrsAriadneOliver

One problem I have with you cake story is that the outsiders we let in also bring cake with them for us to share, so we all get to eat cake and a much bigger selection to choose from.

I’m not in Canada, I’m in the UK. And of course I voted legally, I was born here.

Well, right now we're planning to swap our cake meet with cakes from across Europe for hiding in the corner with a dry rusk crooning "mine mine mine my precioussss".

@MrsAriadneOliver
Re compromise and your response: I feel similar, that we have established what we have in common in our outlook albeit with variations but not adversarial. I was surprised to note that you're a Canadian citizen (have I got that wrong?) which again reminds me of how easily I fill in the gaps of my information with what amounts to my imaginings! I realised when I saw 'Canadian' that I had you down as being from Sweden or Denmark. Yet I hadn't given a moment's conscious thought to the question . of such assumptions are many misunderstandings born.

Is it all about nationalism? If so, I’m afraid I, and many millions, can never get behind Brexit

I think this is probably true.

@KennDodd

I agree

No other country is so concerned with making foreign nationals ‘feel welcome’.

I admired that about Britain though. Why would you want it to be morally smaller, meaner than it was? You say you're an immigrant yourself. It doesn't give you the right to promote or justify the kind of shit attitudes that made your family suffer. Nationalism is precisely what's wrong in the world. It will and already does get in the way of true global cooperation on major issues like the environment. That's fine though I guess, we'll die off in our own little corners. If humanity comes to that then I'd say it deserves its fate.