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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if anybody on here is pro-life?

999 replies

Teeandee · 28/12/2018 15:02

When it comes to the subject of abortion I've noticed a high number of people on here are very pro-choice and support abortion. Is there anybody else, like me, who doesn't?

Everybody is entitled to their opinion of course and I don't think badly of anybody who has had a termination and I don't judge. It's only my personal outlook and life experiences that shape my view and was wondering if I really am in the minority here?

OP posts:
WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 31/12/2018 17:08

You often hear it said that if men don't want to be parents they ought to not have sex. Fine advice. But why does the same not apply to women ? You never see that said.

Very good point. There's also the issue that a man who has had consensual sex that has led to a pregnancy legally has no say whatsoever in whether his offspring is allowed to be born or not.

If we accept that this is possibly unfortunate for him but it is nevertheless fully the woman's choice as it's her body that the baby will grow inside and be born from, how can we then say that she has all the rights but none of the responsibilities of care?

I have the absolute right to jump from a high cliff-edge on to the jagged rocks below and do not 'deserve' to die, but I most probably will; so I wouldn't dream of doing so, being an adult with mental capacity who can easily see the clear danger. Anybody who is too young or otherwise doesn't have the capacity to realise this will not be let anywhere near the cliff-edge without a parent or carer.

That doesn't mean I can't/shouldn't go anywhere near the cliff and explore its natural beauty - but I would get proper abseiling equipment and enlist the services of a qualified instructor before contemplating doing it.

bathsh3ba · 31/12/2018 17:21

I haven't read all 40 odd pages but I'm pro-life. For me, it comes down to a belief that the foetus has rights equal to those of the mother.

KidLorneRoll · 31/12/2018 17:43

The pro-life (anti-choice) argument is one born out of a wishy-washy inability to accept the realities of life.

"Just don't have sex"

Yeah. Good luck with that one.

"Just put it up for the adoption"

Yeah. Not like there aren't enough kids in care as it is, and this is in a country which has, relatively speaking, a decent care system. In others many are left to fend and die for themselves on the street. And there is nothing traumatic about carrying an unwanted pregnancy and giving a kid up for adoption or anything.

"All life is sacred".

Yeah. 80,000+ women dead each year due to unsafe abortion. Don't care much about those lives, do they? Sacred my arse.

"Should have used contraception"

Yeah. Because all contraception is 100% foolproof.

"If you are irresponsible enough to get pregnant you are definitely responsible enough to look after a child."

Yeah. That makes perfect sense.

Pro-living in a fairy tale more accurately.

Drogosnextwife · 31/12/2018 18:39

PawsPurrsAndWhiskers

I completely agree with it being nessacary, but I just don't see the need for the cold way people have to talk about a foetus.

bumbleymummy · 31/12/2018 18:50

“Yeah. 80,000+ women dead each year due to unsafe abortion.”

Many of those countries where abortion is illegal also have restrictions on contraception. Why do the pro-choice brigade gloss over that and focus on lack of abortion?

KidLorneRoll · 31/12/2018 18:56

I don't, but the fact is that banning abortion doesn't make it stop. It just makes abortion harder to access and infinitely more dangerous.

Abortion is not going to go away. The choice is to make it safe, or unsafe. Tough one.

ElonMask · 31/12/2018 18:59

Abortion is not going to go away. The choice is to make it safe, or unsafe. Tough one.

I see. Just like prostitution then ? Or heroin use ?

Madamum18 · 31/12/2018 19:01

Pro life and atheist!

Perfectly1mperfect · 31/12/2018 19:15

Abortion is not going to go away. The choice is to make it safe, or unsafe. Tough one.

I agree. But I think we need to reduce the amount of abortions carried out because people are irresponsible with contraception. I believe contraception failing, if used correctly, is rare. I know a few people who have had abortions, most say their contraception failed, in reality, the woman missed pills or they didn't use a condom every time. The contraception didn't fail, they didn't use it correctly.

snoutandab0ut · 31/12/2018 19:32

Perfectly that’s crap. I know someone who got pregnant while she had the coil, someone else who got pregnant while on the pill and taking it every day, and in my situation I used a condom but it broke so I took the MAP, which failed. A parasite is exactly how I felt about the foetus. I felt the same devastation I’d feel if if was told I had a cancerous tumour inside me. I wanted it gone, and once it was, I was so relieved. That doesn’t mean I don’t realise it would have grown into a human. Of course it would. But while it’s feeding off my blood and nutrients it’s literally the definition of a parasite, and I don’t see why it should be afforded rights above my own.

echt · 31/12/2018 19:34

Abortion is not going to go away. The choice is to make it safe, or unsafe. Tough one

I see. Just like prostitution then ? Or heroin use

Pretty much.

Perfectly1mperfect · 31/12/2018 19:43

snoutandab0ut

I said I think it's rare, not that it doesn't happen at all.

A parasite is exactly how I felt about the foetus.

I think that's awful. I agree that if you do not want to go ahead with the pregnancy, you have a right not to. I especially have sympathy for you as your contraception genuinely failed but I feel you thinking of it as a parasite ot cancerous tumour is awful.

snoutandab0ut · 31/12/2018 20:02

I can’t pretend I felt any emotions towards it when I didn’t. Like I said that doesn’t mean I don’t realise it would have grown into a human. That doesn’t change how I feel/felt. It wasn’t welcome in my body and that’s the end of it

ElonMask · 31/12/2018 20:11

But while it’s feeding off my blood and nutrients it’s literally the definition of a parasite, and I don’t see why it should be afforded rights above my own.

We've been over this before..why do you think getting someone else to kill a human life in your body is any kind of right let alone your moral right ? Because you didn't want to be pregnant but did want to have sex ? You must also know that the life growing in you doesn't become something different because of how you feel about it from one hour to the next.

Do you think it is ok to perform experiments on a live foetus ? If it's going to be aborted anyway. It has as you say no value and is not a life.

Perfectly1mperfect · 31/12/2018 20:24

It wasn’t welcome in my body and that’s the end of it

That is your choice as thankfully for you, abortion is legal here. I feel saying you thought of it as a parasite or cancerous tumour is a very inflammatory statement though.

snoutandab0ut · 31/12/2018 23:10

But I’ve never denied it’s a living thing. I just don’t think it can be afforded any value while it’s not capable of surviving on its own. This is why I said earlier that after the 24 week mark when it could be viable it is ethically more difficult, but I still believe the rights of the woman carrying it come first, hence supporting the ‘as early as possible, as late as necessary’ stance. I’m not being imflammatory, I’m being truthful - the way I felt about it is no more or less valid than someone who felt more attached to it

bumbleymummy · 01/01/2019 02:37

A newborn can’t survive on its own either.

Why should the wonan’s Right to bodily autonomy post 24 weeks justify the termination of the foetus if it is capable of being delivered alive and surviving?

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 01/01/2019 03:57

The pro-life (anti-choice) argument is one born out of a wishy-washy inability to accept the realities of life.

OR

"The pro-choice (anti-life) argument is one born out of a primitive mediaeval belief (or otherwise deliberate unwillingness to accept basic scientific reality) that once a male sperm has fused with a female egg, it has created a human life - and that life doesn't suddenly magically begin the moment a baby first sees daylight" ?

CardsforKittens · 01/01/2019 16:40

Why should the wonan’s Right to bodily autonomy post 24 weeks justify the termination of the foetus if it is capable of being delivered alive and surviving?

Because to deliver it alive is to deny the woman's bodily autonomy. For those of us who prioritise the woman's bodily autonomy, the fetus has no right to life.

"The pro-choice (anti-life) argument is one born out of a primitive mediaeval belief (or otherwise deliberate unwillingness to accept basic scientific reality) that once a male sperm has fused with a female egg, it has created a human life - and that life doesn't suddenly magically begin the moment a baby first sees daylight" ?

This is a misrepresentation both of medieval thought and of modern pro-choice positions. As others have argued above, even if we recognise the fetus as alive, it does not have equal status with the pregnant woman.

Most ethical thought wrestles with liminal points: pregnancy and end of life situations and persistent vegetative states etc. Questions about the meaning of life at the limits of life are not easily resolved, especially when it comes to determining when and how humans should intervene in the realm of God/the course of nature/ the expectations of society. It's difficult because it's inevitably complex.

My position is pro-choice because I think interventions ought to prioritise women over fetuses. I can see the opposite position but I think it is wrong because I reject the moral absolutism of the pro-life/anti-choice position. People who hold that position seem to see my position as a dangerous kind of slippery slope that could lead to infanticide.

It's important to me to argue for a pro-choice position because when I look at what is happening to women's reproductive rights in the USA I worry that any philosophical and legal position that affords personhood to fetuses is a position that (perhaps unintentionally?) severely curtains women's freedom, rights and health.

Xenia · 01/01/2019 16:45

I accept it is a life and that women should have the right to kill it. I cannot see much moral difference between 39 weeks and the day after birth but that is where we (English law) draw the line with a very few pregnancies (and earlier with others).

bumbleymummy · 01/01/2019 22:14

Because to deliver it alive is to deny the woman's bodily autonomy

No it isn’t. The bodily autonomy argument entitles her to choose to no longer pregnant. Why do you think it entitles her to choose whether or not the baby is alive or dead on delivery?

ElonMask · 01/01/2019 22:18

Xenia

But the thing is, and this subtle but important thing is often overlooked...it isn't the pregnant woman that actually kills it, so correctly stated her "right" is that someone else kills it on her say so, and directly deals with the undoubtedly grizzly aftermath of it..an aftermath it bears noting, that is censored.

Late term abortions are infanticide in most peoples mind. That is why very few people would be wiling to undertake one, and why they are unavailable.

ElonMask · 01/01/2019 22:36

Because to deliver it alive is to deny the woman's bodily autonomy. For those of us who prioritise the woman's bodily autonomy, the fetus has no right to life.

This is absurd. autonomy literally means freedom from outside control. Getting someone else to kill something inside your body cannot possibly be considered to be an issue of autonomy..it just isn't. I don't see how this is even debatable, its a complete abuse of language.

CardsforKittens · 01/01/2019 23:15

In medical ethics autonomy is about making informed, uncoerced decisions. I'm satisfied that autonomy is the correct term in pro-choice argument.

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