To ask if anybody on here is pro-life?

[Teeandee]

When it comes to the subject of abortion I've noticed a high number of people on here are very pro-choice and support abortion. Is there anybody else, like me, who doesn't?

Everybody is entitled to their opinion of course and I don't think badly of anybody who has had a termination and I don't judge. It's only my personal outlook and life experiences that shape my view and was wondering if I really am in the minority here?

I've also seen the video's of what actual happens during a late term abortion, and it really made me change my view of sex/intercourse.

It made me think along these lines (a pp expressed it in a way I couldn't),
"That leaves the justification for abortion being that people want to have sex and not be pregnant. It's not a great moral argument." And tbf, it's not. If all you wanted was an orgasm, you don't actually even need intercourse for that? Or you could have used as much protection as possible, map if condom splits despite being on the pill, etc, and you probably wouldn't have gotten pregnant. A lot of people judge overweight people for eating when they shouldn't, but how is this different? Both are willpower issues, and about not being able to resist temptation.

We see sex as something we should be entitled to with no thought to the consequences, abortion is an easy out if the worst happens. I've seen pregnancy being discussed as if it's a spontaneous thing that just happens out of the blue, or a random disease or infection. Woman who keep the pregnancy, then moan constantly about how the babies dad is an arsehole, like there wasn't a choice made? Like these men got them pregnant when they weren't looking? Woman not using contraception etc, sleeping with arseholes then they seem amazed that they're pregnant/pregnant by an arsehole?

Sex is the physical expression of love though, and hard to say no to. But how many of us are having intercourse to suit men? Would be quite happy to stick to oral or manual stimulation, but the guy wants piv? Look at the amount of threads along the lines of "he's never made me orgasm, he just wants to ram it into me all the time, he hasn't found my clit yet..." People creating children they'll decide to abort, so a bloke they don't really like, can spend 10 minutes humping in them/coming in them, often with little in it for them. Is it really worth it?

Of course we react to the m/c of a much wanted pg differently.
When we want a baby an embryo is referred to as ‘the baby’ from the moment the blue line appears. It represents not only an embryo but all our future hopes and dreams, tne future fulfilment of our yearning to be a mother

Totally different from the wish not to be pregnant, not to want this to be happening and not to want, or be able to be, a mother at that time.

Exactly the point of free choice for a woman.

A persons feelings towards the embryo doesn't change the fact that it is a life. Wether the child is wanted or not is irrelevant, the mothers feelings on the matter do not change that fact.

Well, yes, exactly! The difference is whether you believe that was a life being lost or just the potential for life. I don't believe that it is a life yet

Well, an individual cell can be alive. A fertilised egg is both alive and human. It is a human life, just at its earliest stage. It has potential to die naturally or to be killed, as does every living thing, but it's already alive. How much value society places on that early lifeform is the question, particularly when compared to the value society places on the life and wellbeing of its mother.

lozierinstitute.org/a-scientific-view-of-when-life-begins/

When we want a baby an embryo is referred to as ‘the baby’ from the moment the blue line appears. It represents not only an embryo but all our future hopes and dreams, tne future fulfilment of our yearning to be a mother

None of that makes that embryo anymore alive than an unwanted embryo. The only difference is the feelings of the parents.

“None of that makes that embryo anymore alive than an unwanted embryo. The only difference is the feelings of the parents.”
As I said- yes, of course.That’s the point.

There are many reasons why people have abortions and some of these reasons do not have to make sense to others.

“The only difference is the feelings of the parents.”

Yes. And for me the feelings of the mother, the person in whose body the embryo is, are paramount.

For others the preservation of the embryo regardless of the feelings or situation of the mother is paramount.

Smokypig you seem to be deploying an argument that appears popular with pro-lifers, that abortion is always traumatic. It isn’t! I have had zero ill effects physically or mentally from mine - just absolute relief and if I’m honest, joy that the unwanted intruder had been removed from my body. I had a contraception fail and took the MAP before anyone says I should have been responsible.

However, I do acknowledge an embryo is a living thing - but it’s a parasitic one. It can’t sustain itself outside of the womb, and I honestly cannot fathom the logic of holding its ‘life’ in equal or even higher regard to the woman carrying it. Yes, things do get more ethically difficult when it reaches a stage it would be viable outside the womb, but I do support the ‘as early as possible, as late as necessary’ stance because anything else is forced birth. While the foetus resides in someone else’s body, it can’t sensibly be afforded rights over its carrier. That is utter madness to me.

And even if pro lifers do donate to children’s charities or advocate for adoption etc - what kind of life do they think these unwanted kids would have? Either they’re born to a mother who never wanted them and would resent them her whole life, or they’re shunted around the care system. To what end? Just on the point of principle of them being alive, even if their lives might be utterly miserable?

As I said- yes, ofcourse.That’sthe point.

I'm pretty sure I was quoting someone else in my post, pretty sure it didn't refer to anything you said and want aimed at you.

"And even if pro lifers do donate to children’s charities or advocate for adoption etc - what kind of life do they think these unwanted kids would have?"

I think there's a lot of cognitive dissonance between abortion and infanticide. Many babies are drowned, left out to freeze etc, when abortion is not available. Many in the UK seem to think a mother who makes that choice is reprehensible, any kind of infanticide is seen as disgusting or outrageous, but it's usuallly done for the same reasons abortions or performed? The child would have no quality of life, starve to death anyway, the father would legally be allowed to see the child, but would likely become violent or perverse, etc. If you think abortion is understandable, but killing a baby is evil, how do you square that up in your head?

Yes. And for me the feelings of the mother, the person in whose body the embryo is, are paramount.

Yes but that doesn't make one baby more alive than the other.
Too many people seem to think that there is no life there if the mother does not want the child, and too many people seem to be under the false impression that an embryo isn't alive until it can "survive" on its own.

I think a poster is just comapring a woman having an abortion at say 12 weeks to a woman killing a 6 month old because they haven't got enough money?

Is that correct?

My problem is I actually want to be "pro life", bit after seeing children live in extreme poverty, seeing children who have been neglected and abused, some removed from parents, some left to muddle on through etc. I think abortion is necessary, in that it is the lesser of the three evils (for want of a better phrase). I do not feel sorry for anyone who falls pregnant due to carelessness, I would only feel sorry for the child who has to grow up for years with a parent/parents who only feel hatred or disappointment in that child. I do however feel very sorry for people who have been put in that position through no fault of their own e.g. rape, mental illness that affects their ability to understand the consequences of their actions, risk of fatal illness or abnormalities in the child or mother.
Those are the reasons I find abortion nessacary, and I don't think there can be restrictions put on who can access abortions.

"I think abortion is necessary, in that it is the lesser of the three evils (for want of a better phrase)".

^This!

One poor academic who argued that killing a baby an hour after birth was no worse morally that aborting 1 hour before was villified but he has a point. I am not sure there really is any moral difference. However I am happy we sanction the killing of unborn children in rhe circumstances set out in the current law and would leave the law alone.

"I think a poster is just comapring a woman having an abortion at say 12 weeks to a woman killing a 6 month old because they haven't got enough money?"

I was thinking more a 12 hour old baby, one that was born because abortion wasn't available. I can see why women in really deprived places have to make that choice, and that it must be heartbreaking and traumatic, and why abortion at 12 weeks is a better option. But some people seem to hold very conflicted views about the subject? Both acts (ending the childs chance at life), can be done for the same reasons, but can be judged very differently? Thankfully women in the UK don't ever have to make that choice but it does happen in places like rural india.

“Too many people seem to think that there is no life there if the mother does not want the child, and too many people seem to be under the false impression that an embryo isn't alive until it can "survive" on its own.”

No Drogo we are not that thick,

My own view is that a viable embryo does not have rights beyond what the host being - the adult human feeling - decides to give it, because it is her body.

For me a woman has to have the right to choose over what happens in her body. That is an absolute belief for me. And it includes the right to terminate a viable pregnancy.

Once a baby is born it has rightsxas an independent human being. He or she can survive without being inside the mother’s body or being biologically dependent on the mother.

As the baby is then an individual human it is our societal responsibility to take care of it, if the parents cannot / do not .

That responsibility for a born child dies not give Society the right to police what happens inside a woman’s body, IMO. But it does in yours, it seems.

NoDrogowe are not that thick,

Oh no some people are, I have witnessed that drivel a few times on threads on abortion.

As the baby is then an individual human it is our societal responsibility to take care of it, if the parents cannot / do not .

As a part of society are you actively participating in taking care of those children? By that I do not mean paying tax. If you are, then I would have great respect for you.

Did you miss the part where I said I think abortion is nessacary? It amazes me when people skip over the parts they don't want to acknowledge because it doesn't fit in with the opinion they have formed on an Individual.

Cross posted with your ‘necessary’ post.

No, I don’t do anything particular to look after neglected abused children. I vote for the government I think is least likely to let them down, make charitable donations sporadically etc, like most people. My point is that society has a duty to support born babies, not a right to police women’s bodies by insisting they remain pg against their will. Because supporting / protecting babies, foetuses, embryos while they are still inside the woman is over riding the woman’s agency over her own body.

'For me a woman has to have the right to choose over what happens in her body. That is an absolute belief for me. And it includes the right to terminate a viable pregnancy'.

This.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of abortion - whether or not you consider it to be an evil - imo forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy she doesn't want, is an evil all on its very own. As somebody who went (by choice) through a very difficult and risky pregnancy, I don't think it is reasonable to demand that of an unwilling woman & I am amazed anyone does.

And I do believe that misogyny is at the heart of it, whatever those who are anti abortion may claim. They are saying that the woman cannot be trusted to make the decision as to whether to proceed with her pregnancy - that someone else's judgment has to be substituted for hers ie her own judgment isn't up to much - even though the matter most nearly concerns her.

There is no other context in which individuals expect to be forced to supply their own bodies as a vehicle for securing somebody else's life. Nobody has ever been forced to donate a kidney for example - or be compelled against our wills to so much as give blood.

But apparently it's all different when it comes to pregnant women - they are expected to go unwillingly through the pain and risk of pregnancy and childbirth, because of course women are expected to be self sacrificing.

Well then I can't respect you using that as your personal argument. What gives you the right to demand that "society" (Just other people really) have a responsibility to foster or adopt those unwanted children?

I do think it's strange that people jump to the conclusion that I am definitely pro life because I argue that a foetus is a life as soon as it is conceived, and people's feeling towards that foetus have absolutely no impact on that fact.

And I do believe that misogyny is at the heart of it, whatever those who are anti abortion may claim.

This is sheer ignorance, and just something certain people use to put others down and try to shut them up. How dare anyone have an opinion based on a moral veiw.

A question for those who are pro-life.

Imagine you are 15 years old and have just discovered you are pregnant. Your periods have never been regular so you are 8-10 weeks gone already.
The baby's father is your brother who has been sexually abusing you since you were about 11 years old.

If you tell your mum she won't believe you so you can't discuss options with her.

If you have the baby it will quite possibly have disabilities caused by being born of incest. You aren't in a position to keep a baby. Your family won't support you. They won't believe you. No one will want to adopt the baby, not when there are 'perfect' babies who still need families.
What would you do?

Now imagine you find yourself in the same situation a year or so later.

This is my story. This is my life.

I feel guilty everyday that I had those abortions. I also know they were the right thing to do for me at that time. For me it was not an easy thing to do, but i firmly believe the alternative would have been far far worse.