To ask if anybody on here is pro-life?

[Teeandee]

When it comes to the subject of abortion I've noticed a high number of people on here are very pro-choice and support abortion. Is there anybody else, like me, who doesn't?

Everybody is entitled to their opinion of course and I don't think badly of anybody who has had a termination and I don't judge. It's only my personal outlook and life experiences that shape my view and was wondering if I really am in the minority here?

Bumblemoney
It dont matter what it could become really as,
Both can affect your life long term
Both can ruin a womans body
Both are a result of sex
Both in some cases are unwanted, std always unwanted but lets not kid ourself many pregnancys are not wanted
But yet only one is used to punish women for having sex. Hint, its not the std

I can take all emotion out, both are conditions i never want in my life, pregnancy may as well be a disease in my eyes, they risk my life and wellbeing. I will do my best to avoid both. There are many women who feel the same.

A question for those who are pro-life.

Imagine you are 15 years old and have just discovered you are pregnant. Your periods have never been regular so you are 8-10 weeks gone already.
The baby's father is your brother who has been sexually abusing you since you were about 11 years old.
If you tell your mum she won't believe you so you can't discuss options with her.
If you have the baby it will quite possibly have disabilities caused by being born of incest. You aren't in a position to keep a baby. Your family won't support you. They won't believe you. No one will want to adopt the baby, not when there are 'perfect' babies who still need families.
What would you do?

Now imagine you find yourself in the same situation a year or so later.

This is my story. This is my life.

I feel guilty everyday that I had those abortions. I also know they were the right thing to do for me at that time. For me it was not an easy thing to do, but i firmly believe the alternative would have been far far worse.

@PorpentinaScamander

I'm truly sorry to hear what a horrendous ordeal you went through - twice makes it even more horrifying.

I can't speak for all pro-lifers, of course, but in your circumstances, as a juvenile victim of violent criminal assault, I personally would not criticise you in any way. You have nothing whatsoever to be ashamed of and I'm so very sad to hear that you have to carry this burden.

However, your appalling experience is miles away from the circumstances surrounding many thousands of adult women each year - pregnant as a result of consensual sex and often having no other reason for seeking an abortion than "It's not really the best time for me" or similar.

If a pro-choicer were to jump from your extreme of the spectrum straight to the other - and to exploit what you went through by demanding that abortion should therefore be freely available without question for any reason whatsoever - I would find that distasteful and morally unjustifiable in the extreme.

I am not in favour of a blanket ban on ALL medical terminations in extremely harrowing cases such as yours and where the mother's life or health is in genuine serious danger. I would believe such to be a tragedy and still a taking of an innocent child's life, but a morally justifiable one in such distressing circumstances.

I just cannot believe that the vast, vast majority of abortions that are carried out in the UK every year are in any way comparable to this and, therefore, however inconvenient or life-changing for the mother (and father, who should not be absolved of any responsibilities for the life which he has also created, unless he has died), absolutely not a justifiable reason to deliberately take a human life.

Webuilt
Abortion should be available to any woman who is pregnant.
Think of it like this, i wouldnt allow a adult human to feed of my body so why would i let a foetus. A foetus has no right to the womans body without ongoing consent, like you or i cant demand another give us blood or organs should we need, even if we die

Children are born, we are talking foetuses here

What a foetus is considered is different for every woman. For me its a problem, parasite, issue that needs fixing. Like if i were pregnant and i was looking at death, i would say save me, not the foetus, my life is paramoumt. Some women would say "save my baby let me die"

For me, a day later if it was now a born baby, save us both, we are now separate. Essentially if your attached to me, your at my mercy.

I found out i was pregnant at 27 weeks, if that had been via rape and i was refused abortion, id try diy or suicide. Id be pushing for abortion on mental health grounds. Why should a person who finds out late due to no symptoms or signs, like none be forced to gestate the rest of the pregnancy? Thats reducing the woman to a mere incubator

Ahh, a baby or toddler can be cared for by anyone at all, its not attached to the womans body. There is no obligation to breast feed. A born baby can literally be handed off, a pregnancy cant, its solely dependant on the womans body

We don't kill serial killers or other criminals but we don't have to raise them to maturity, find nursery fees or drag them around shopping centres or school open days either.
Caitlin Moran drew a xomparison of womenhood with the Hindu god Shiva...a creator of life but also a destroyer.
We are the creators...it's not always a desired creation...we get to say what happens to our own wombs and what is in it.

The varking dog analogy is not in the slightest bit similar to abortion. For a start the dog has been born and is capable of life outside the womb.

The varking dog analogy is not in the slightest bit similar to abortion. For a start the dog has been born and is capable of life outside the womb.

The barking dog analogy was not about abortion itself.

The comparison of a broken manufactured product (a radio) to a sentient living creature (a dog) was a response to a PP who was suggesting that an STD can bear pretty much the same value - and be considered the same worthless nuisance - as a human life.

We are the creators...it's not always a desired creation...we get to say what happens to our own wombs and what is in it.

Right up to the point before a child leaves your womb by being born? The law doesn't allow this in the vast majority of cases. Have you been fervently campaigning for the right of all women to rid their wombs of any unwanted occupants at any time, for any reason, right up to the point that another adult is able to step in and take over all responsibility for the care of an unwanted child?

Webuilt
Abortion should be available to any woman who is pregnant.
Think of it like this, i wouldnt allow a adult human to feed of my body so why would i let a foetus. A foetus has no right to the womans body without ongoing consent, like you or i cant demand another give us blood or organs should we need, even if we die

Children are born, we are talking foetuses here

You won't be surprised to hear that I disagree with you, but I DO respect the consistent logic of your opinion - that a child (foetus) has no inherent value at all, right up until birth, unless the mother explicitly assigns any value to it throughout the pregnancy.

How strongly do you hold to this belief? Have you campaigned or lobbied your MP for full-term abortion rights for all women who want them for any reason whatsoever and no more forced births?

Bullshit, i dont want to be pregnant is a perfect reason. Consent to sex isnt consent to pregnancy.

Let's examine this. Abortion makes most people uncomfortable,although they accept in some cases it can be the best option. Why does it make them uncomfortable ? Because it requires the simultaneous holding of contradictory beliefs. The life in my tummy is the most important and treasured life there is, but the life in those other womens tummies is worth absolutely nothing.

Think of some men and their attitude to prostitution. They manage to do the same thing, "I don't want my women involved in prostitution, but for those other women it is fine."

What is it, fundamentally, that causes this scramble to excuse the inexcusable ? A desire for sex. It seems to me that there is endless moral boundary pushing to justify our right to sex. Whether it is the mutilation of dogs genitals so that impotent middle aged couples can still get it on, or the killing of unborn life, it can all be justified by orgasms. So long as I can still have sex....

pregnancy may as well be a disease in my eyes, they risk my life and wellbeing. I will do my best to avoid both

Yeah, but you won't though. Because doing your best would involve not having sexual intercourse.

I am pro choice

However given the advances in medicine and knowledge and the availability of contraceptives .... it’s a grey area that’s fo sure !

ElonMask no, it's not about our right to have sex.
It's about our right to have control over our own bodies.
And yes, not wanting to be pregnant is one reason for abortion.

However upsetting I might find late term abortions or abortions for convenience, I fully support them as a woman's right. No ifs or caveats regarding circumstances of conception. That is pro-choice.

We have the 2 limits for non disabled and for disabled babies (24 and 40 week usually) as a compromise int he UK. It is not that medical science has decided that life suddenly comes to a baby at 24 weeks and is never in a disabled one. We allow the killing here. I think it is life but that women can have the choice under the current law to sanction that death.

I don't agree those who approve of the current law have to hold contradictory views. I believe a baby in my or another woman's tummy is a life. Nor would I say a baby in my tummy (when I had one there or two in the case of my twins) was the most important thing in the world to me at that time. My responsibilities to the other children are just as important and the family were also important and my career (which is what feeds up).

^ElonMask no, it's not about our right to have sex.
It's about our right to have control over our own bodies.^

No it isn't, you already have control over your own body. You want to able to request someone else does something to your body, so that what otherwise naturally happens with your body does not. You don't get pregnant if you don't have sex, the two are not separate.

"Because I don't want it" is not a moral justification for anything, otherwise where does that leave us ?

I believe a baby in my or another woman's tummy is a life. Nor would I say a baby in my tummy (when I had one there or two in the case of my twins) was the most important thing in the world to me at that time. My responsibilities to the other children are just as important and the family were also important and my career (which is what feeds up).

This is fudging the issue, i support the current law but I can still see that a foetus has an intrinsic value, it can't be the case that my one does and someone else's doesn't. And so killing it because I want a promotion at my work is morally wrong. Perhaps I can live with that but that doesn't make it morally right.

I think it is life but that women can have the choice under the current law to sanction that death.

Sorry missed this. In general I agree but I don't think that because women can sanction that death it is morally right.

I am pro life OP.

I think it's fairly straightforward to reject moral absolutes such as the sanctity of life. Morally it's right to prioritise a woman's quality of life over the life of a fetus inside her. I'd also argue that it's up to her to define her quality of life. I think this is probably the position that allows women to choose late termination in the case of fetal abnormalities such as Down's. I'd extend it to all situations.

“ I don't think that because women can sanction that death it is morally right.”

Yes, just because something is legal doesn’t make it morally right.

Squeak
“It dont matter what it could become really”

Well, yes, it does. That’s why it’s a moral issue. If the foetus really was nothing more than an wanted disease then no one would have any problem with it being terminated. No more than they would object to a woman taking antibiotics to get rid of an std.

Broken down, emotions out of it, pregnancy is a mere risk of sex, like an std.

Emotions have nothing to do with it, a foetus is a human life, an std is not. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong.

For me its a problem, parasite, issue that needs fixing

I've seen arguments for an against abortion on forums before but saying this is just terrible.

Oh paws, I've witnessed worse on abortion threads.

Drogosnextwife Just calling a foetus/baby a parasite, makes me feel very sad.

I think it's a necessary thing that abortion is available but I just don't know how some people can be so comfortable and cold about it.

JillScarlet

Sorry, missed this

“Let me put it a slightly different way, you are not morally entitled to have sex free from the biological reality of what the act might entail.”

Why not?

Well, as I've been arguing because it involves killing something ? Why should anyone be willing to kill anything on your behalf just because you want to have sex?

but in terms of her rights as an individual by reducing her to a vessel or incubator.

Again, you seem to view pregnancy as a punishment and a woman's biology as unfair somehow? Something which very often needs corrected, hence I assume your comparison between pregnancy and a deadly disease.

As I said in my earlier post, I believe what drives a lot of this philosophising about how abortion is not what's bad, no it's the fact women get pregnant that's bad etc. is sex, all manner of immoral things are excused just so people can have sex. To me this is another example. Whether it be men defending prostitution or scientists mutilating dogs penises, the means always somehow justify the ends. To paraphrase : "Your instinct may tell you it's a baby in there, most people may refer to it as such, but no you see, it only magically becomes worth more than the shit on my shoe if it makes it the other side of mothers skin alive."

By your own logic you could have no moral objection to scientific experimentation on a live foetus, even though it was known to cause the foetus distress. Because your position is that it has no value and so anything can be done to it.

The stark truth is that despite being utterly unwilling to be pregnant, women gamely engage in the act that makes them pregnant. They obviously won't stop, or only do it with a man who's children they actually want so that means that unfortunately we occasionally need to solve the messy aftermath and come up with a moral justification for doing so.

You often hear it said that if men don't want to be parents they ought to not have sex. Fine advice. But why does the same not apply to women ? You never see that said.

Or we should be encouraging other forms of sex maybe.