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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask if anybody on here is pro-life?

999 replies

Teeandee · 28/12/2018 15:02

When it comes to the subject of abortion I've noticed a high number of people on here are very pro-choice and support abortion. Is there anybody else, like me, who doesn't?

Everybody is entitled to their opinion of course and I don't think badly of anybody who has had a termination and I don't judge. It's only my personal outlook and life experiences that shape my view and was wondering if I really am in the minority here?

OP posts:
Fluffiest · 29/12/2018 05:21

Children born after denied abortion fared worse than their peers in many respects. Psychiatric hospitalization was twice as common. Delinquency was twice as common, and criminal activity was three times higher. Registration for public drunkenness was 50 percent higher. The likelihood of receiving public assistance between ages of 16 and 21 years was six times higher and of having learning disorders two times higher. In all dimensions, children born after denied abortion fared less well than their peers

That is hard reading, and way more needs to be done to support parents and children in care. But the argument for me is that even a life of "underachievement" (quoting the study) is still a life, which has potential for improvement and opportunity. But abortion is guaranteed death for the child. Which is the point where I can't conclude that abortion is a good thing.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 29/12/2018 06:02

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Does that help? It's pretty basic stuff.

Thanks for that - not really, though Hmm

I know very well what 'straw man' means, but I didn't (and still don't) see how it applies to my comment.

I was not drawing a syllogism, treating it as a mutually-accepted single-issue viewpoint and then arguing from that basis - I was merely juxtaposing two quite basic and commonly-discussed moral issues which both involve choices as to whether life continues or not and which I was proposing would share some common ethical ground and then seeking opinions as to whether people agreed with me or not and, if not, how they arrived at their opinions.

Similar to the very good point that a PP made earlier on about the vegan, pro-life friend, who held what could be seen as dichotomous views but in fact were reasoned by the friend in a way that made good sense to me.

The4thSandersonSister · 29/12/2018 06:06

I'm indifferent on the issue.

bumbleymummy · 29/12/2018 06:12

In many of the countries where illegal abortion is practised, contraception isn’t readily available. If you care about women’s choices shouldn’t you be trying to raise awareness of that rather than focusing on the lack of abortion in those areas?

echt · 29/12/2018 06:14

I know very well what 'straw man' means, but I didn't (and still don't) see how it applies to my comment

CheshireCat makes the point well at the bottom of page 21.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 29/12/2018 06:26

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll I've offered another reason a bit earlier, but if pro choice people believe that a fetus gets more rights once it lives independently of his mother, then it's easy to see that the capital punishment is completely irrelevant to the abortion discussion.

Thanks for explaining your viewpoints, CheshireChat.

However, I don't see how discussing capital punishment is completely irrelevant to the discussion. If it is then what is the relevance of stating your (very good) reason about the inability to be 100% sure of a murderer's guilt and then referring back to it again?

I think we may be at cross purposes here as I realise that pro-choicers ascribe more rights to people once they live (or might be capable of doing so) independently of their mothers - although the ability to survive independently of any adult assistance obviously doesn't come for several years after birth.

Maybe I phrased it badly, but I was wondering how a pro-choicer could square the two issues, which I do believe can legitimately be raised for comparison (although others clearly believe differently, which is absolutely fine).

OutComeTheWolves · 29/12/2018 07:35

I've wanted to be a mum for as long as I can remember. All my children were conceived at a convenient time to me and with my husband via consensual sex so I've never needed to consider an abortion, but in different circumstances I still wouldn't have had one.

The fact I've never had an abortion is due to a mixture of my own good luck and my own personal opinions. Neither of these things should have any bearing on anybody else's life choices so for that reason I'm extremely pro-choice. I've never wanted an abortion so I've never had one, other people should be completely free to make a different choice.

I love being a mum and I'm the happiest I've ever been since having my first. However my body has changed (tear plus c-section scars), my finances have been affected (childcare costs), my career opportunities have changed (had to go part time due to childcare issues), my social life is buggered and I'm massively sleep deprived. (Incidentally dh's body, social life, career and sleep remain relatively unchanged but that's another thread Wink). Nobody should have to go through all of those things unless they really want it. A child deserves to have parents that think it's the best thing that ever happened to them not to parents that were forced into the situation due to a lack of available options.

Helmetbymidnight · 29/12/2018 08:11

This thread isn't about trying to change the law or to deny women their legal rights - it's about opinions on the morality of abortion in general

I’m not interested in your opinion on the morality of abortion. I’m interested if you want to change the abortion laws.

I would expect anyone who calls themselves ‘pro-life’ to want a change in the law....(but not on this thread where pro-lifers seem a bit confused)

OutComeTheWolves · 29/12/2018 08:50

Also every pregnancy is a gift.

This is my true at all and shows a real lack of ability to put yourself on someone else's shoes. My pregnancies were gifts because I really fucking wanted them. I can think of many scenarios where I wouldn't have considered it a gift though.

OutComeTheWolves · 29/12/2018 08:50

My true = not true

TwistedStitch · 29/12/2018 08:51

I'm pro choice but anti death penalty. I don't see that as a contradiction at all. My reason for being pro choice is simply because I believe that born people have the right to bodily autonomy. That includes the right not be forced to undergo a pregnancy against their wishes and the right not be be killed by the state. I'm more confused by pro lifers who support the death penalty.

AcornLane · 29/12/2018 08:59

I don’t think pro lifers are confused!
We believe in the sanctity of life, at every stage. The unborn,the most marginalised in society and those at the end of their life ( ie against euthanasia).
The reason myself and I suspect others said we wouldn’t make it illegal is because it is not what the majority of people want. Of course I want to see the limit reduced and I would never have voted to repeal the 8th in Ireland. I would love to live in a society where abortion didn’t exist..because everyone held the same view - that the life of the unborn should be protected. But sadly we don’t
If I were PM would I ban abortion? No. We live in a democracy.
I am however 100% pro life. At all stages. In all cases.

Not confused here

TwistedStitch · 29/12/2018 09:06

I don't think pro lifers are confused! We believe in the sanctity of life, at every stage.

There is at least one pro lifer on this thread who doesn't extend the sanctity of life to the pregnant woman, I do find that very confusing tbh.

There have also been people claiming to be pro life who say they don't believe person in X situation should be allowed to have an abortion- when you ask how this would play out in reality they suddenly say oh no I would never stop them, it's their decision etc. It used to be that pro life meant being against abortion and being against them happening too. Now it seems to be about not wanting to actually take responsibility for what happens when you actually deny women abortions, but reserving the right to judge.

TwistedStitch · 29/12/2018 09:08

*too many 'actuallys' there!

BertrandRussell · 29/12/2018 09:09

“I am however 100% pro life. At all stages. In all cases.“
Rape?
Incest?
If the baby has a condition incompatible with life?
If the mother will die if the pregnancy continues?

HTKS · 29/12/2018 09:17

Pro choice until 24 weeks.

Don't really understand how abortion on demand works after that. You're aborting to end a pregnancy, aren't you. That's the argument, that you have bodily autonomy and shouldn't be forced to continue with a pregnancy you don't want. Pre 24 weeks, the foetus dying is an unavoidable consequence of that. After that, ending the pregnancy doesn't mean the baby also has to die so I don't really understand what's being asked for.... induction on demand? CS on demand at any point? To ask or demand for the baby to also be killed, despite the fact that that will have no bearing on your bodily autonomy, seems a step too far.

Of course practically we don't want our NICUs clogged up with babies born at 26 weeks for a termination, so on balance I think we have it right with the current law.

MaisyPops · 29/12/2018 09:18

TwistedStitch
Or people are capable of being against having abortion themselves (with different lines e.g. medical issues/assault), whilst being aware that their opinion on a moral issue shouldn't limit other women.
Abortion is a necessary procedure to have and beyond a certain point makes me feel very uncomfortable. But the idea of what some women will face if abortion wasn't safe and legal horrifies me. Which outcome does the least amount of harm? For me having safe and legal abortion does less harm than outlawing abortion.

That position is only confusing if people want to create some sort of false dichotomy between people who are 'pro life but really anti choice and want to make abortion illegal' vs 'pro choice who think abortion to term for any reason is the only approach to have'.
The reality is most people's opinions on moral issues are a bit more grey than that.

TwistedStitch · 29/12/2018 09:23

TwistedStitch
Or people are capable of being against having abortion themselves (with different lines e.g. medical issues/assault), whilst being aware that their opinion on a moral issue shouldn't limit other women.

Yes but that is pro choice. It's the posters saying they are pro life and then expressing those views that confuse me. If pro life now just means being pro life for yourself but letting other women choose for themselves then I'm all for it. Sadly it's not the case though- pro lifers influence legislation, even in parts of the UK women are still denied abortion rights.

AcornLane · 29/12/2018 09:25

As far as I know,not one single pro lifer suggests a mother should die. If she does so does the baby so the mother would always be treated Even if that meant ending the unborn life to save the mother as she also has the right to life.

In all other cases listed. Yes I am pro life. Because I believe the life of an unborn baby conceived through rape or incest is worth the same as a baby born to loving parents.

Doesn’t mean it’s fair on the mother. Rape and incest are unthinkable. It’s horrendous to think that these things happen to women. But the life of the unborn must be protected. As all life should be.

TwistedStitch · 29/12/2018 09:29

One pro lifer on this thread doesn't believe a woman should be allowed to abort even if a pregnancy will likely kill her- only if it is guaranteed to.

alansleftfoot · 29/12/2018 09:36

Pro life = forced birth.

bumbleymummy · 29/12/2018 09:40

twisted but equally, some pro-choice people want abortion to term. That’s not representative of every person who identifies as pro-choice. As Marist says, there are grey areas. Why does pro-life have to mean one thing but pro-choice can be a spectrum?

AcornLane · 29/12/2018 09:40

Even the Catholic Church believes in saving the mothers life in every case.

Forced birth vs not being born Hmm

bumbleymummy · 29/12/2018 09:41

Maisy*

ChoudeBruxelles · 29/12/2018 09:41

AcornLane who’s life is more important if a mother’s life is at risk because of pregnancy. Is it better for both both and child to die rather than having an abortion?