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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Hunting without the actual fox

204 replies

itsbritneybiatches · 26/12/2018 20:44

This is just caused a bit of a row in our house.

Family member comes into the room where I am and says how disgustingly it is that the supporters were kicking off and a 15'year old was pushed off a horse.

Now I am very very anti fox hunting and I said I am the last person you want to speak to about this as I do not agree with fox hunting on any level.

They continued about how bad it was that this 15 year old has been pushed from the horse and I responded with a comment along the lines of they shouldn't of Been on the horse to go out and do that kind of thing, no sympathy whatsoever.

Apparently now they don't hunt foxes. Just pre laid trails.

So if a fox is then smelt on the way of the pre laid trails, willl the hounds hunt that or the pre laid trail?

I just can't get my head round a sport that is to chase an animal, to its death. The torment that animal Must go through in the name of sport it just disgusts me. Who could actually enjoy that.

OP posts:
ShitOnItt · 27/12/2018 16:34

It’s a very bizarre and deranged hobby to have.

If I announced I was inviting some friends round on Boxing Day to have a few drinks and torture my cat to death as it was ‘highly enjoyable’ I’d probably be reported. And rightly so!

But when it involves hunting and foxes some people seem to think it’s an entirely different kettle of fish? It’s not, at all, while the fox population does need to be controlled fox hunting is not the way to do it. It’s barbaric.

And i say that living in the countryside and having ridden horses my entire life. Pushing the child off the horse = not ok, but you can see why people get distressed and passionate.

ShitOnItt · 27/12/2018 16:37

Why does something have to die for posh people to have an enjoyable Boxing Day!

Lockheart · 27/12/2018 16:42

@ShitOnItt “Why does something have to die for posh people to have an enjoyable Boxing Day!”

It doesn’t, that’s why drag hunting exists...

ShitOnItt · 27/12/2018 16:43

Exactly, no need for fox hunting or Sabs or anyone to be pushed off their horse then. If people just stick to the law.

SteamedBadger35 · 27/12/2018 16:48

@ShitOnItt You are right about your cat. But equally you can be invited to someone’s house for Christmas and expect to eat the meat of several tortured animals just because we like the taste, and no one bats an eyelid. (in fact they are more likely to bat an eyelid if you refuse).

How the human mind can hold such wildly opposing views about different animals is baffling to me.

toucan12 · 27/12/2018 17:45

There have been a couple of very sensible balanced posts on this thread, but sadly they are very much in the minority!

Some sabs mean well, do their research and protest sensibly. Some are complete idiots who endanger not only themselves but those around them. Half the time sabs get shouted at for being in the way because they are putting themselves and others at risk. Sabs also trespass an awful lot, most hunts will have got prior permission from the landowner, sabs do not have that permission.

The vast majority who hunt do it for the social aspect and because it is a countryside tradition. I live in the country, I know lots of people who hunt, I do not know anyone who enjoys watching a fox being killed. The hunts around us have foxhounds and trail hunt, they do not intentionally go out to hunt foxes, and they are careful to stick to the trail and not cross land they do not have permission to be on.

As with any part of life, there are always some idiots, and therefore there will be idiots who make the rest of the people who go on hunts look bad.

Shooting foxes should not be encouraged, shooting at night is how people accidentally get shot, and there are few people out there who are good enough with a rifle that they can guarantee they won't just injure a fox and leave it to die a slow painful death.

Those who have not witnessed the hunt in real life, please do not get your information from the internet, as previous posters have said, so much of what you see is staged propaganda and completely inaccurate.

And of course, whether a child is 10, 15 or an adult, violence no matter why should never be condoned. Falling form a horse can be fatal if not cause life changing injuries.

Andro · 27/12/2018 18:10

ShitOnItt - you can ride with a perfectly legal drag or trail hunt and still end up being targeted by sabs, they have a nasty habit of assuming that because you ride with hounds (of whatever breed) you're after a kill.

NicoAndTheNiners · 27/12/2018 18:12

Trespass though is a civil offence. So not sure how hunts people seem to get away with pushing/hitting/riding horses at people even if they are trespassing. Surely that's assault? You're not allowed to manhandle people off your land even if they are trespassing.

ThanksForAllTheFish · 27/12/2018 18:24

I absolutely loathe fox hunting. Horrible, cruel, evil ‘sport’.

I say that as someone who has a horse and have been around horses all my life. I only know 2 people who have actually been on a hunt - coincidently both grew up in England before moving to Scotland (where I live), the rest of the horsey people I know are all anti fox hunting. And I know a lot of horsey people.

That said I do get annoyed when the anti fox hunting crowds do stuff to stop the hunt and end up hurting the horses in the process. If you care about animals so much why would you hurt a horse who is there through no choice of its own.

As for the 15 year old - yeah they shouldn’t have pushed her off the horse or hurt her but at 15 she should know better than to track and kill animals for fun. I also don’t buy the whole drag hunt facade- we all know it’s a real hunt under the false pretence of following a set trail.

Everydayisdragging · 27/12/2018 18:34

There are registered drag hunts where hounds are trained to follow a CHEMICAL scent that cannot be confused with a fox scent. Any unregistered 'drag hunt' has hounds trained to follow a fox urine scent that is laid by a runner but obviously any fox trail that overlaps can then be followed, they just play dumb about it, it's a 'happy accident'. Anyone who thinks fox hunting doesn't happen is incredibly naive or full of shit. Bloody Ben Hobday was off cubbing just the other day, proudly

IJustLostTheGame · 27/12/2018 18:38

Yabu.
I used to drag hunt as a teen. It was brilliant fun. We never even saw a fox, they had more sense and would stay underground. I really miss it.
Our hunt stopped due to the roads getting busier and it was too dangerous for dogs, riders and horses to continue.
Pushing anyone off a horse is assault. It's absolutely disgusting behaviour and gives good responsible sabs a bad name.
I've come a cropper to sabs in the past, they would put wire up on paths tontry and trip us and wwould occasionally jump out of bushes with foghorns.
They are incredibly dangerous and callous things to do. It could kill someone and/or seriously injure a rider, dog or horse.
Even if they were hunting a fox and not a trail, acting with violence is a nasty thing to do and there's no excuse for it. On either side.

Everydayisdragging · 27/12/2018 18:41

toucan12

Shooting shouldn't be encouraged? What on earth.. Its quick, humane and extremely effective. And also usually only occurs on private land with the owners permission, its very rare anyone is ever shot accidentally. Managing the fox population to prevent livestock death is important but having a rifle man quickly kill a fox is the best option, not getting suited and booted with the horses and hounds. What other option is there? Confused

Biggerknickersagain · 27/12/2018 18:46

Andro

ShitOnItt - you can ride with a perfectly legal drag or trail hunt and still end up being targeted by sabs, they have a nasty habit of assuming that because you ride with hounds (of whatever breed) you're after a kill.

You don't even need to be on a drag hunt either. I've been targeted for riding alone, not in hunting gear btw, jeans and a jacket with flourecsent tabard and reflective bits on the horse (which wouldn't be accepted on the hunting field it's formal horse gear) and was in an area the hunt was 'expected' where the sabs were waiting. I was shouted at, called all sorts and my path blocked. Tbh when I heard the hunt coming I wanted to get the hell out of there anyway because my horse gets really excited having experienced hunting before I got her and I didn't fancy getting carted off after them against my will!
I had to turn and canter away because they wouldn't let me through, despite pointing out I was alone, not in hunting gear and not pro hunt. I would have absolutely retaliated had they got close enough to grab at my horse, she was upset enough being shouted at. They were on private land that belongs to the livery yard, with anyone from that yard and a few others, and the hunt, having permission.
They didn't touch me or the horse, but she was confused and upset by it all and there was no need. To anyone who knows their stuff I clearly wasn't with the hunt. Yet was targeted anyway, and called among other things , a posh c* - so my view on sabs is negative, even though I have the same views on hunting.

Andro · 27/12/2018 19:00

Biggerknickersagain - For people who claim to be protecting animals, the cause a huge amount of distress to so many of them!

Aragog · 27/12/2018 19:03

15y is definitely a child. Not a toddler or a little child, but definitely not an adult yet.

No one should be pushed off a horse, even 'accidentally' in a fracas. A child most definitely shouldn't be.

I do not agree with fox hunting in the slightest. Hate it.

But anti hunt protesters do not have the right to hurt and assault other people regardless. They should be punished legally for their actions.

I hope the child is okay. Falling from a horse can be exceptionally dangerous.

Aragog · 27/12/2018 19:06

I know 15 is a child but at 10 your tried as an adult as you know the difference between right and wrong and Make your own decisions.

No you're not. You are tried as a juvenile. And sentenced as a juvenile. Juvenile sentences are different to young offenders (17-21y) and adult offenders.

Many pieces of research have shown how the brains of teenagers are not yet fully developed especially in the areas of reasoning and decision making.

toucan12 · 27/12/2018 19:16

everydayisdragging

Sorry I probably didn't articulate that very well! Shooting for pest control when done properly by a professional is effective. What I meant is that it shouldn't be something encouraged to landowners in general, as it encourages those who are not properly trained to have a go. While injury to people is not common, it does happen. There are instances where people have mistaken the glint of metal for an animals eyes at night and accidentally shot someone, and similarly during the day, there are not many areas in the UK you can shoot safely at ground level if using a rifle.

I don't think there is an obvious alternative? Same for most other pests, killing any animal is difficult to do in a humane manner. But we shouldn't encourage activities that are also difficult to regulate and can be dangerous (yes you need a license to own a rifle, you don't have to prove you're actually a good shot though).

mbosnz · 27/12/2018 19:18

Also, the onus would be on the prosecution to prove the 15 year old had committed a crime - so, they would have to prove that it was a premeditated illegal hunt of a fox, rather than a legal drag hunt that she was a part of.

Then, there are the actions of the sab, who had clearly committed assault, when trying to forcibly remove the person from their horse. Self defence or defence of another - could that be stretched to proactively assaulting a person because you thought that an animal MIGHT be in jeopardy as a result of their victims actions?

tierraJ · 27/12/2018 19:25

On Facebook there is filmed evidence that hunts still kill foxes.

Hunt supporters do attack sabs & certain sabs probably attack hunters.

The very real risks of violence & doxxing are what would put me off being a sab.
I think anyone who is a non violent sab is quite brave actually.

In my family one of my uncles is actually a beater at shoots & I hate that too.

mbosnz · 27/12/2018 19:29

Yeah, but is there evidence that this particular hunt, on this particular hunt, was aiming to kill a fox?

Is there evidence that this hunt rider had attacked this hunter?

If not. . . well, I'm sorry, but I reckon you'd be pushing the proverbial uphill to argue any kind of legal protection for the sabs actions. Or, for that matter, moral. All they have is a basis of prejudiced, highly subjective, quite possible somewhat classridden, assumption, upon which they unlawfully used excessive force on another person, surely?

mbosnz · 27/12/2018 19:31

Sorry, hunt rider attacked this sab.

Just got distracted by the cat winning against me at foozeball fourth time running. . .

MagnificentSevenHeaven · 27/12/2018 19:35

There are instances where people have mistaken the glint of metal for an animals eyes at night and accidentally shot someone

I'm going to have to see some links to officially recorded incidents of this I'm afraid.

I've heard it as an Urban Myth, not too many people would be in the middle of a field, the countryside at night with no lights, reflective clothing unless they were up to no good & very probably deserving of a fright....

LadyLance · 27/12/2018 20:02

I don't agree with hunting foxes with hounds, and I'm dubious about the merits of shooting them, really.

However, I am horsey and have been on drag hunts and to other hunt activities and I wanted to clear up some misconceptions.

These days, there are a few different types of legal hunting:

Drag hunting- where the hounds and riders follow an organised pre-laid trail. This existed before the ban (since the 1800s) and the trail is usually laid so that people can have a fast, fun day out with lots of jumping. Some hunts also specifically lay trails where there is always a non-jumping alternative. Drag hunting is pretty much solely for the entertainment of the riders, and the hounds are there for tradition only- drag hunters would not usually want to go off after a fox (even if legal). They want the speed and thrill, rather than the kill and the hounds are trained to specifically follow the "drag" scent which is often synthetic these days.

There are also drag hunts that use bloodhounds to follow a human runner, although these are much rarer. This is sometimes called "hunting the booted foot" which sounds a bit sinister!

Trail hunting- This is what replaced fox hunting when the ban came in. Usually, an animal scent is used, but the trails are laid to try and mimic the behaviour of a fox, so it is a slower day and sometimes the huntsmen and riders do not know where the trail is laid. It was only invented in 2004 and viewed by many hunts as a "temporary" activity until the ban is lifted. In general, it is trail hunters who have "accidents" where foxes are killed, as their hounds are usually trained to follow live quarry. Trail hunts may go out with terrier men, with the intention of pursuing foxes underground.

I'm sure most trail hunts aim to stick to the law. I'm equally sure there's a few that don't.

"Legal" hunting- there are also some hunts that still go out with the expressed intention to kill an animal. They do this in a variety of legal ways or grey areas, such as flushing foxes to be hunted by birds of prey (bizarrely this is still legal). Some hunts use terriers, which is legal if done in a very specific way- AFIAK, more hunts now use terriers illegally on a regular basis than use hounds illegally (although of course they don't publicise this). The legal intention with terrier hunting is that the fox is flushed and shot, but often this isn't what happened. In Scotland, I believe it is still legal to flush a fox with hounds to guns.

Many hunts also organise fun rides, hunter trials, sponsored rides and so on. These are partly done as part of the country social calendar, and for sport (a hunter trial is like the cross country part of eventing, a timed event over fixed obstacles that horses and riders tackle one at a time). Fun rides and sponsored rides aren't competitive- there's usually optional jumping and people go to have a good day out and ride on land where they aren't normally allowed.

Although these events don't involve hunting as such, they are usually done in part to raise funds for the hunt. Personally, I wouldn't attend such an event if it was run by a hunt I knew to be regularly killing foxes but I can also see why people don't think too deeply about these and often such events won't make a big profit these days.

As with hunts, I think there are well educated and effective sabs, and sabs who have no idea and will just target anyone on horseback in the general area. I think anything done to cause horse and rider to part company is extremely irresponsible, due to the risk to the horse if it panics and the general public if it ends up on a road. I have seen videos of sabs doing things to horses/hounds that I would personally consider cruel.

I can understand why sabs can be tempted to violence- if the ban was better policed, then it would be less of an issue as they could just gather evidence and report to the police. Personally, I'd like to see whole hunts prosecuted rather than single individuals, as well as all the landowners involved- but I understand that this would be tricky to organise!

Lexilooo · 27/12/2018 20:27

@LadyLance it is "hunting the clean boot" 😉 because there is no scent being spread by the runner.

toucan12 · 27/12/2018 21:07

MagnificientSevenHeaven

www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/jul/27/ukguns.stevenmorris
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-314239/Shot-badger-spotter-mistaken-fox.html

Not too many examples, so maybe it is an urban myth!

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