Hunting without the actual fox

[itsbritneybiatches]

This is just caused a bit of a row in our house.

Family member comes into the room where I am and says how disgustingly it is that the supporters were kicking off and a 15'year old was pushed off a horse.

Now I am very very anti fox hunting and I said I am the last person you want to speak to about this as I do not agree with fox hunting on any level.

They continued about how bad it was that this 15 year old has been pushed from the horse and I responded with a comment along the lines of they shouldn't of Been on the horse to go out and do that kind of thing, no sympathy whatsoever.

Apparently now they don't hunt foxes. Just pre laid trails.

So if a fox is then smelt on the way of the pre laid trails, willl the hounds hunt that or the pre laid trail?

I just can't get my head round a sport that is to chase an animal, to its death. The torment that animal Must go through in the name of sport it just disgusts me. Who could actually enjoy that.

I shall tell the company inno uncertain terms Nico. Given that he was convicted of unlawful hunting in 2012, I’m amazed that he’s kept his job - and he even boasts on Linkedin that the company provides financial advice to judges and barristers. It will provide financial services to one less of those very shortly. All arguments about hunting aside, his behaviour was disgusting.

Sadly we were called fucking scum and cunts last time I was out.

This is why I’m dubious about the claims of numbers of foxes being killed. If Lexiloo is a member of a hunt formed NOT to hunt foxes, why are they targeted by protesters?

I wonder if some people just enjoy intimidating others and use animal welfare as a pretext. That, by the way, is not a criticism of genuinely concerned people who oppose cruel sports lawfully and peacefully.

I suggest the followers it is 75% the thrill of the chase/kill and 25% pest control. It certainly comes across more of a tradition/social thing than actual pest control.

I wonder if sabateurs' objection to hunting is 75% disgust that people enjoy it and 25% about the actual pain/death of foxes?

Like the earlier example re rat poison - if someone puts down rat poison and gleefully watches the rat die a slow and painful death, most people would find that harder to deal with than someone putting down rat poison and feeling guilty about the rat dying a slow and painful death and trying not to think about it. But should it matter? After all, for the rat the outcome is the same...

From an Animalwelfare perspective I find it interesting that so much time and effort is spent anti-hunting yet so little is spent ‘anti-broiler-farming’ or ‘anti-badger-shooting’ when both of these activities have a much bigger animal welfare impact

To me the problem is enjoying of the hunting yes. It never sits easily with me.

My friends husband is the water of our hunt. They don’t ever kill foxes since the ban and do drag hunting. The hunts don’t always flour the rules. He lives off his job. His hounds are incredibly well trained. And don’t go mercilessly killing foxes...they follow a trail.

My friend that hunts has had sabs follow her home and sit outside her house in their car, in their balaclavas, and threaten her. She has young children. What the fuck are they hoping to achieve?

Fox hunters are dicks. And so are people who poison rats, rabbits etc.

Agree on fox hunters, but without past control how do we manage food safety?

Veterinari

Is shooting badgers particularly cruel? Or is it that they’re shot at all? I haven’t really followed the bovine TB thing closely. Are badgers now thought not to spread it?

And is there a difference between shooting a badger and a fox in welfare terms?

(I assume from your name you’re a vet and would know these things.)

Quite a bit of misinformation on this thread.

Drag hunting is a centuries-old practice in which a non-animal scent (usually aniseed), to avoid confusion with live quarry scents, is laid on a trail known to the hunt master before hand and is followed with bloodhounds and not foxhounds. Bloodhounds are not usually trained to follow live scents. These hunts rarely, if ever, end in a kill.

Trail hunting is a practice which has sprung up in the wake of the hunting ban. This uses animal scents (such as fox urine) and is followed with foxhounds. As a result, live quarry often become targets for the hounds, as they’re following the right scent and are trained to follow foxes. It’s not uncommon for these hunts to end in a kill.

As to the question of trying to push someone off a horse, it’s fucking dangerous and can result in the horse lashing out, which could well result in the death or injury of any unfortunate parties who happen to be standing behind them. Not to mention the damage a horse can do to itself.

I saw a video of some hunts today that scared me, where protestors with placards were scaring horses - 2 horses were spooked and knocked over what appeared to be a father and child (I don’t know if father and child were protestors or supporters).

Don’t fuck with horses. They’re powerful animals. Protest to your hearts content but don’t interfere with the hunters or their horses - you are endangering yourself, the rider, the horse, and all the bystanders around you.

Anyone who thinks trying to push a rider off a horse is in any way justified is thick in the extreme.

There is sooo much evidence out there of illegal fox hunting taking place. Also why do trail hunts still have terrier men? In my opinion they are the worst. No chance of escape for the fox. Plus they block badger sets to stop foxes taking cover. Disgusting people.

Fox hunting outside of the law is vile, I think most people agree with that. And I have no issue, in fact welcome people observing to make sure the law is followed. But sabs often go too far and often (as observed on this thread) don't understand whether it's a drag hunt or an illegal hunt, or even just a hunt ride or hound exercise.

Nico has posted to numerous examples of when sabs have been injured, but my friends horse died as a result of a sab sticking a stake point up into the ground behind a hedge. The horse jumped the hedge and ended up impaled on the stake and bled to death. Not quick, painless or humane, but according to that particular sab group "justice".

Not all sabs are like this, just as not all hunts operate illegally. But both sides are too worked up about the other to be rational.

Also, if a sab grabs a horse's reins it will most likely panic and lash out. Terrifying for the rider and the horse. Perhaps that's how some of them end up bloodied?

Anyone using violence against someone else because hold different views is disgusting.

Assaulting a child is disgusting and indefensible. You say the child shouldn't have been there, as if it makes it the child's fault? Perhaps the protesters shouldn't be gathering so close to horses and causing such a fracas that knocks a child from it. Doesn't sound they give much of a shit about possible distress to horses.

I don't like fox hunting but wouldn't ever dream of pushing someone off a horse. That can cause serious injuries if the person lands funny. I don't like or agree with a lot of things but physically assaulting children for holding different views makes that person no better and they lose any moral high ground.

The video of the hunt in Newport, Gwent was alarming. The protestors appear to care little about horse welfare, and nothing for the welfare of the riders, one a very small child. I don’t support fox hunting, but neither do I have time for militant saboteurs. My dad was fly-fishing years ago in Cheshire, and had bricks lobbed at his head by saboteurs who were tracking the local hunt.

Foxes are still chased to exhaustion and killed where I live by the local hunt wankers who seem to truly believe that they have the right to ride over my land without permission, tearing the ground up, ignoring laws and being entitled and vicious arseholes. Trail hunting is a lie, an excuse used to mask the real reason for riding out which is for the hounds to kill and the riders to screech with laughter about it, while they ride wherever the hell they want regardless of whether they have permission to be on the land or not.

@Ruffina

This is why I’m dubious about the claims of numbers of foxes being killed. If Lexiloo is a member of a hunt formed NOT to hunt foxes, why are they targeted by protesters?

That's the bloody point!! They (sabs) are either too thick to research, or just enjoy a ruck to much to give shit!!

Drag hunts and bloodhounds DON'T hunt foxes, don't 'kill' foxes by accident it's just an exhilarating, enjoyable day out for horses, riders and bystanders.

Remember, we can't ride over farmers fields, through rivers and woods as standard - usually were stuck with pissing everyone on the roads off by daring to ride along them!

I take my horse hunting with bloodhound packs. They are trained to hunt human scents only and we ride pre-arranged lines in the wake of runners. I am 100% sure that there is no nefarious fox chasing going on with those packs.

On the other hand, our local traditional fox hound pack was out on Xmas eve, literally outside my yard and I do not believe they were only following pre arranged lines. One of their members was recently prosecuted for blocking badger holes.

However, regardless of this, horses are flight animals and it is incredibly stupid and dangerous to wave placards near them and scare them. A horse is always going to win that argument by weight alone.

the whole foxhunting debate is as lively as brexit

Nothing justifies pulling a 15yo from a horse

90 %of people that hunt or follow hounds wouldnt have a clue what is actually going on up at the sharp end
Terriermen will block holes the day before and or run a dog through the set to flush anything out so it is on top on the day
If a fox goes to ground during the hunt it will have a terrier put down which could flush it into a net when it will either be shot or put back on the quads to be released discretely again in front of hounds for some more sport
It is not an effective method of pest control as shooting with a lamp is much easier ,however lots of lads about that wouldnt be the best shot so a few wounded foxes crawling off to die
If hounds catch a fox it does die
With hunting there always seems to be lots of ignorance and misunderstanding of the facts on both sides (brexit )
Probably more important things to get in a twist over in the real world

Ruffina
Is shooting badgers particularly cruel? Or is it that they’re shot at all? I haven’t really followed the bovine TB thing closely. Are badgers now thought not to spread it?

Badgers are responsible for around 5% of TB transmission - the rest is cattle to cattle transmission and poor on-farm biosecurity. Yet the main focus of the government is still on badger culling as it’s an ‘easy win’ for farmers
Free shooting of badgers failed the criteria for humaneness set by the government but they’ve ignored this and continued to use free-shooting techniques despite it being demonstrably inhumane.
Cage trapping and shooting is likely more humane but its clear that shooters are not being properly trained as per the video of a badger in a cage bring impromperly shot that was in the news a couple of months ago.

I find it strange that people get so upset about fox hunting which is essentially minimal now but thousands and thousands of badgers are being inhumanely shot for no good reason and almost no one is protesting that.

Ditto industrial farming. If you’re serious about alleviating animal suffering you’d be working to end pig and poultry farming and slaughter.

But I don’t think it’s actually about animal welfare for most people. It’s about disrupting ‘Toffs on horses’

@billysboy - Unfortunately this cruel and barbaric practice is going on in the 'real world'
As for the argument about pest contol: most hunters I have spoken to say 'oh we hardly ever catch anything anyway' - so why do it then if it's so ineffective?

Veterinari

Thank you. That’s very interesting.

Exactly the same experience as Slama here. The hunts in my area DO kill foxes and will go wherever they bloody want to do so, terrifying horses not involved in the process. If you ask them not to come on your land you will be spat on and called scum. Our friends farm has to bring all horses inside on hunt day, even though they make it clear they are not welcome. And it's not safe for the children to be outside on their own land, for fear of being trampled.

In no other area can I think that it would be ok to physically injure somebody because you disagree with what they are doing.
You wouldnt go over and punch someone in the street because you didn't like what they were up to.
Your talking about a 15 year old for crying out loud. Regardless of what they are up you cant assault them. They must have been terrified.
We don't make members of the public fair targets for vigilantes in this country, let alone children.

Regardless of whether or not a fox may have been hunted it can't be acceptable to potentially severely injure a child to protect an animal.

Sorry (and I know it's not the same as the point of the thread) but if I saw a 15 year old torturing a cat, dog, tortoise whatever out in the street I would be stepping in and if that "child" got hurt in the process than tough.

Also

Yes I eat meat but I don't think the beef I eat has ever been chased across the countryside for an hour or more in terror, before being dug out a hole and then ripped limb from limb. The moment abattoirs start killing pigs/cattle/sheep in that manner I promise I will go vegan.

You should watch The Land of Hope and Glory. They may not be being chased around but they do live in terror and are not living the happy roam free life portrayed by advertising.

Not a vegan by the way!

Sorry (and I know it's not the same as the point of the thread) but if I saw a 15 year old torturing a cat, dog, tortoise whatever out in the street I would be stepping in and if that "child" got hurt in the process than tough.

That’s a fair point @Ragevibration and I agree with you there, but at the point the OP is talking about no toturing was happening. The 15 year old was sitting on a horse not torturing anything. And if it’s a drag hunt (and not a trail hunt) then the likelihood of any animals getting hurt is extremely low. So still no torturing.

You can’t physically assault someone on the basis of what might happen.