DP won't marry. Is it me or is it him?

[Teeandee]

DP and i have been together a few years, one child and a second on the way.

We'd spoken about marriage after being together for about 12 months and we were getting serious. I was lead to believe it was on the cards and was something he wanted too, so I had no concerns about starting a family about a year later. He's a good provider, supportive and a good father.

He's been engaged twice before but never made it up the isle. His first engagement was in his very early twenties but she left him for somebody else.

His second engagement was to an ex he was with for six years and has a child to, who he later told me he'd only proposed to because her family were putting on the pressure to "make an honest woman out of her" so he did it to make her and them happy. They eventually broke up but he continues to pay child maintenance and sees his DD regularly so he hasn't been evading his responsibilities.

He's not a serial romancer and has only had three significant relationships in his adult life, the two I've mentioned then me.

With our DC2 on the way I began to press the subject of marriage and he now tells me he really doesn't want to get married, never has, and that it's not "me" he doesn't want to marry, it's anybody.

This is when he tells me about his heart not being in it when he proposed to his ex, and says he doesn't think he'd have gone through with a wedding because it's not something he ever wanted, but felt pushed into by her and her parents.

I'm understandably upset because I was lead to believe it was something he wanted, only to be told it's definitely not.

What's going on here, is it me or is it him? Is he spinning me a line about not wanting to marry 'anyone'

FTR I'm not remotely concerned about being left in the lurch with DC and no support, house is in my name and I have my own money. I can see he's somebody who provides for his DC regardless of whether he's with the mum. It was about love for me and not money

I've been close to proposing, in fact I was planning to just before I brought the subject up the second (and last) time. I wanted to make sure we were still on the same page before I asked him and I'm glad I did check first because that's when he said he wanted to be honest and he didn't want to get married at all.

I don't think I'd humiliate myself by asking now because I know what his answer would be, or if he did happen to say yes it would only be because he felt guilty.

I did say I wasn't interested in a big wedding only a small formal registry office do, but his reservations remained the same.

I'm not going to up and leave him right now as we're happy, but I do suspect that maybe this is something that might fester and resurface somewhere along the line later on.

But you still made the choice to have children with him without being married, I'm afraid.

I insisted on marrying my husband before we even had unprotected sex, let alone actively started trying for a baby! You say yourself you weren't in a rush to get married yet you happily had a child with him and got pregnant with a second even though you still weren't married to him.

This isn't all his fault. If it was so important to you you should have refused to have children until you were married to him. You didn't, so now you can only work with the situation you have in front of you - either stay together and accept you'll probably never get married, or give him an ultimatum and be prepared to lose him if he doesn't want to marry you.

If he really never wanted marriage he could have said it outright and definitely. Although the OP has to own her passivity because he didn’t show any intent to marry after that first lead to believe moment. His relationship CV reeks of serial monogamy.

Tbh, I don’t think he has a strong opinion on marriage and he basically will offer as little commitment as possible and excuses to match. I’m sure he could be dragged to the altar but that won’t improve his staying power. He will leave at some point and will probably never try to divorce as separation is the perfect excuse for his serial monogamy. He likes relationships, plural. He wants the freedom to move on when the going gets tough.

Nb I don’t want to marry, no long list of excuses. Just something I don’t want. Not sure I would diceive anyone but equally I wouldn’t make a big think about it. I do know people who read a bit too much into vague statements about marriage. Turning “I’m not against marriage” into a proposal.

What does “very present in his child’s life” mean?

I feel for you. I'm in a similar situation. When we met he wanted to get married ect. 6 years and 2 kids later still no proposal and just keeps saying it will happen in time. I'm getting old. I don't want to be much older. Meanwhile all my friends are getting engaged and getting/got married and I'm very happy for them but everytime someone else gets engaged I feel a little more sad for myself. I'm ashamed to admit it but have cried this Xmas over it (not that he knows)
I gave him the kids he wanted and so now he don't need to try anymore.

If it were that meaningless a piece of paper he wouldn't be so against it. And it's a hard fail to be against marriage because you think it'll damage the relationship, given that married couples are less likely to split up than unmarried. It was wrong of him to mislead you and I'd find it hard to trust him after that, but tbh you weren't wise, if marriage is important to you, it was not sensible to sleepwalk into a situation where you never put your cards on the table and had kids, with a man who has two broken engagements behind him already. That should've been a clue.

That said, from what you say it might not be to your advantage to marry anyway. You said the house is in your name, is that your sole name?

If you know it's a deal breaker in the long term don't waste any more time on him. Get the ball rolling and move on. Don't spend the time with him that you could be spending with your future husband.

Ooh shit, can someone let me know my sell by date please? I can't find where it's stamped on my wrinkly old bod. Perhaps I've past it without realising and I'm now "yesterday's jam" already.

Go and have a look on a few dating sites. Almost all the men, even if they’re geriatrics, will have a target age including women much younger than themselves but often exclude women around their own age or older and frequently quite a few years younger than the men themselves. Women rarely do the same. Our whole society is set up around the ideal woman being young, healthy and fertile and I think women would be deluding themselves if they thought it had no impact on who men choose to date. But there’s very little of the same judgment of men by their age.

When long term relationships split, it’s usually the woman who has the hardest time establishing a new relationship because our society and to some extent our biology devalues women who have aged but it does not do the same to men. Hugh Hefner has half a dozen bunnies in his house until he died at 91 and nobody was bothered. But Macron gets mocked and his wife called a Granny while Madonna is mocked for her dancer toyboys who are 30 years younger.

The OPs DP does not seem to be very committed to her. I think she would be foolish not to consider whether she’d be better off leaving the relationship now in her 30s than she would be if it ended in her 40s or 50s and the ability to start a new relationship should be a part of that. Anyone who claims dating in your 40s and 50s is the same as in your 20s or 30s is a liar.

Because being married to a man - any man - is more important than the family and the children she created with the present man?

How does that work?

Well if he doesn't want to get married, what about a civil partnership? You'll get the legal benefit at least. I know it's for same sex couples at the moment, but there was a ruling that heterosexual couples would be able to in the future.

That might be a reasonable compromise?

Exactly, adaline. I was the same. I can see where he came to the conclusions he did because you did go ahead and have two kids with him.

Yes, that's an interesting point re CP. Though not without problematic baggage of its own, CP isn't marriage and his mother didn't spend all his money on civilly partnering someone. See what he has to say about that. I suspect his response may be quite illuminating. They're to be available I think spring 2019?

This is probably going to be the first of a number of these type of threads as peak proposal season finishes, though the poster upthread who said we seem to see one every couple of weeks was probably right. It'll be interesting to see if the upcoming extension of CP to straight couples makes any difference to the commitment shy.

I think it's really fucking unfair to tell you he wanted marriage when clearly he never has. Marriage is currently the only thing that provides the protections/ legal status that frankly you should be entitled to as the mother of his children. He has lied about something really fundamental here, something that could make a big difference to your life in the future (in his favour and not yours of course - but that couldn't possibly be why he doesn't 'believe' in it ). Unless you earn the same as him or more and there is absolutely 100% equality in terms of looking after DC, taking time off work if they're sick etc etc he is taking advantage of you badly. I wouldn't accept this. He's not stupid, he knows what marriage is and he's fobbing you off about it denying you basic security as the mother of his children.

OP - I'm just not sure it matters.

My DH (we are married now) was just like yours. His parents had a very confusing relationship, and he was convinced that marriage made people in relationships lazy. We shared bank accounts, a mortgage, and were expecting our first baby and he still refused. What tipped it was that we were living abroad when the baby was due and his paternal rights would have been complicated if we weren't married. Not being married was more work than getting married. He agreed but we had to elope in a very low key ceremony.

It has made absolutely no difference. We never remember our wedding anniversary until one of our mothers sends a message. We did just celebrate the 20th anniversary of our first date. I know that date. Marriage has made ex-pat life easier, but hasn't made a dent in the relationship.

We did have a 10th anniversary party. He planned it, I couldn't be bothered.

Just watch out for you pension, but besides that I wouldn't push. Only about half the couples we know via the kids friends are married.

It's not about cementing love with a piece of paper, it's about cementing financial security. He's a fucking idiot if he doesn't realise this and you're a fucking idiot if you put up with this!

Who inherits his pension and/or his death in service benefit from his employer if he has one if he dies next week? Chances are that if he has this and hasn't updated it then it will all be left to his Mum/Dad who are his next of kin.

Does he have a will leaving anything to you? A well written will - overseen by a solicitor - can be as good as being married but can be contested.

Is the mortgage/tenancy in joint names or just his? If it's just his then you won't have a right to stay there. A house in his name only will be sold as part of his estate and the council/housing association will take back the house. As an unmarried partner you have no rights to inherit either.

Oh and it works both ways. If you die first he won't get your pension and if it's your mortgage/tenancy then he won't be allowed to stay.

And I know DWP lost a court case recently on this but I don't think they've updated the rules yet. If you're unmarried there's no Bereavement Benefit if you aren't married. Get your arse back to work whilst you're grieving and looking after small DC. Cos ya know, it's just a bit of paper....

I think it's really fucking unfair to tell you he wanted marriage when clearly he never has.

But if he wanted marriage, and she wanted marriage, why did neither of them insist on it before having children? Answer: because neither of them wanted it enough. OP says herself she wasn't fussed about marrying right away and he clearly isn't either if he's not made noises about proposing despite them having a child and one on the way.

I wish women (and it's always women) would stand up for themselves a bit more in this regard. I see so many threads where women have been told "I'm not ready" or "it'll happen soon" when it comes to marriage, and they go ahead and have children on a false promise. The marriage never happens (because the man never intended to get married in the first place) and they're left upset, confused and vulnerable.

If marriage is important to you, insist on it before having children. If they won't marry you to won't commit, then move on and find someone who will, or have children and accept that you might never get the marriage you wanted.

Everything that MeMums said.

Don't put him on the birth certificate, register the birth with him or give DC2 his surname. If he wants parental responsibility he can go to court for it. If he won't be a husband why should he enjoy the benefits that come with it?!

As others have said - get joint mutual wills, joint mutual life assurance policies and get a co-habitation agreement with a provison for a lump sum and regular maintenance for you if you should break up, to compensate you for the loss of earnings/career progression and pension. His attitude to this will tell you everything. Any reluctance on his part shows you that his refusal to marry you is absolutely about protecting his assets rather than marriage itself.

Yes, the law still doesn't provide for bereavement benefits to be paid to anyone other than the dead person's spouse. Siobhan McLaughlin won but the law hasn't yet been changed.

Which brings me to my next point, which is that marriage matters a lot, because it's a legal contract that affects a number of things. That's why when people are in a relationship they need to be honest and proactive about whether they're going to get married or now CP'd or not. That's a dual obligation. On both.

adaline it's not all on women. Plenty of men in this day and age think it's fine to have the benefits of a wife without getting married. Plenty lie to and deceive women in order to have children and families without making any real legal commitment.

Im always suspicious of men who have children with a woman but won’t marry her. Not entirely sure why; I just feel that it all the risk is with the woman.

We married a long time before our son was born. My husband wasn’t actually that bothered about marriage and thought it was “just a bit of paper”. But he knew it was something so important to me that he proposed, and we married. I never would have had children with him unless we were married

Plenty of men do lie and bullshit, and if you're sleeping together then even with contraception there will be some unplanned pregnancies, but the reality is that lots of women sleepwalk into this. Avoidably so. There have been so many threads on here from women who want to get married but haven't insisted on doing so before choosing to move in, choosing to TTC, choosing to buy property together, choosing to give up or reduce working hours. It's possible to either not do these, or do so with eyes open and, if marriage isn't going to be forthcoming, to make choices with this in mind and to actively take steps to protect yourself as far as possible.

Plenty lie to and deceive women in order to have children and families without making any real legal commitment.

Nobody is saying they don't.

But women need to go into relationships with their eyes open and stop sleepwalking into situations they're not happy with. FAR, FAR too many women have children, reduce their hours/give up work and give up their homes without the protection of marriage.

Men can lie and say they'll marry them one day in the future, but women still have a choice. They don't have to have unprotected sex or get pregnant if they don't want to. Of course contraception fails sometimes but if you don't want a baby outside of marriage there are loads of ways in which you can protect yourself from that.

And as for this Plenty of men in this day and age think it's fine to have the benefits of a wife without getting married. - what on earth? These women aren't forced to move in with men and have their babies at gunpoint, are they? They make those choices themselves! They choose to have children outside of marriage (not that there's ANYTHING wrong with that if both parties are happy with it) but you can't choose that life then complain it's not what you want afterwards.

Same, Mammy, in fact I avoided men who had children with a ten-foot barge pole when I was single and childfree. The whole step parent and dealing with the ex role, nope.

As for 'just a piece of paper', well, so is a will, a passport, a degree, a title deed.

LOADS of women sleepwalk into it, too.

It's not all on women. Plenty of men in this day and age think it's fine to have the benefits of a wife without getting married.

Then it’s up to women to make damn sure they are married before having children. It is on women, as it’s in their best interests to be married, and they should make sure it happens. Men wouldn’t get very far if no woman was playing that game, would they?

This is shockingly common. I don’t really understand how you got to being pregnant with no 1, never mind 2, without discussing this and actually getting married but I’m a pushy cow

I’d advise caution: He might seem marvellous now but when he is on woman no 3 (and impregnating her) you may well be in for a shock as to how generous he is...
Especially when he has to pay child support for 3 different children and run his new household