To ask what we have to look forward to after March 29th 2019

[Bearbehind]

It turns out Theresa May’s definition of ‘soverignity and democracy’ is to postpone a democratic vote, not allow anyone except her to change their mind and generally run to clock down until her deal is the only option.

So what do people think about that?

What are the benefits we have to look forward to when we leave the EU given it turns out ‘they don’t actually need is more than we need them’ after all?

What are we doing this for?

(And for those who want to ignore Brexit, don’t read this thread. Equally, this is the biggest thing this country has ever faced in most of our generation so please don’t banish this to the Brexit section)

Just musing this as an possible advantage when clearly no one side seems to be able to find one.

The only positive I can see is a complete reset of UK politics, as the Tories will be reviled for screwing the economy (on top of their austerity policies) and Labour will be shitcanned for being totally incompetent as any kind of opposition.

badlydrawnperson leave arguments are dismissed because they aren't arguments they are words 'sovereignty' and 'freedom' are not killer points.

I disagree passionately with the vast majority of conservative policy, I don't agree with austerity but arguments could be constructed to make the point. I could respond to those points but some experts and economists could produce statistics and figures to back in the views I am opposed to.

The reason remainers get so incensed is because decisions that will have serious and long lasting ramifications are being made for flimsy reasons or issues that are valid (austerity) but have absolutely nothing to do with the EU.

Not one, not one leave poster can cobble together a semi coherent argument and some points that are repeated are easily disprovable lies.

Buteo But unless we also have electoral reform, we won't see any significant changes.

in 2105 around 73% of people who voted voted for parties other than the Tories but we still got a Tory government. The Lib Dems got 8 seats on 7.9% of the vote and the SNP got 56 seats on 4.7% - you couldn't make up such a wanky system anywhere else with an alleged democracy. If we'd had PR, we probably would never have had Brexit.

@Mouse OK, I am sure that, in the same way being run over by a driver running a red light will allow you to occupy the moral high ground, continually posting about how terrible all Leavers are will help a lot in the forthcoming months; and asserting the superiority of your intellect and arguments at all times will certainly help heal divisions and win over the leavers to the unassailable correctness of your case and make them realise just how very wrong and stupid they are; fill your boots.

badlydrawnperson yup, FPTP sucks, but there is fertile ground for a new centrist party.

It's nothing to do with my intellect. It is to do with the quality of the argument.

When leavers put forward the argument 'don't dismiss us and don't call us stupid" as a remainer you respond by saying "ok prove me wrong, convince me with referenced arguments."

So far so logical.

The response from leavers is then "you are horrible, you are saying we are stupid how will you convince us of anything if you are always so horrible".

What can remainers do? Respect arguments that are self evidently worthless - that would be patronising in the extreme. Pretend the arguments are sound when they aren't?

I won't patronise people, if you say something stupid I will call you out on it, would you rather I treated you like a child? Should I say "well done" and smile benignly when someone says "the EU is undemocratic"?

You are totally right about PR though. Ignoring necessary constitutional reform is why we are in this mess.

"if you say something stupid I will call you out on it,"

and yet it's not about you asserting your moral and intellectual superiority?

In a way I wish I lived in your world where I could be so sure I was right about things and could constantly "prove it" with "facts", but I don't - and actually I think people on both sides are mistaking opinions for facts.

And honest exchange of arguments isn't about exerting intellectual superiority- you are letting your own insecurities show.

If I say something that is stupid please tell me. Because if you tell me and explain why I can reevaluate and stop saying it so don't look like a fool. If I keep saying " the EU is undemocratic" when it isn't, I look stupid.

And who brought any kind or morality into this? Not me. I'm sure your morals are where they should be.

I'm not sure I'm right about lots of things, I don't think the EU is brilliant, I think the country has been badly let down by many politicians but I can see no good reason to leave. And more importantly no leaver has given me any good reasons why we should leave.

I have had lots of discussions about how rude remainers are, how dismissive they are, how they don't listen, how they patronise people, how they think they are right...

Personally, I would much rather discuss the facts about Brexit, or leavers could give me 3 good reasons.

But asking for reasoned arguments is mean isn't it?

If I keep saying "the EU is undemocratic" when it isn't, I look stupid.

As defined by whom?

asking for reasoned arguments is mean isn't it?

Not unless the sole reason for asking is to give them a good Fisking, which it often is.

As defined by pretty much every definition of democracy and every political scientist.

The EU has two democratically elected chambers the Parliament and the Council of Ministers.

Two democratically elected chambers as opposed to the one in the U.K.

It has checks and balances in place and the elections are free and fair. That is pretty much a definition of a democratic organisation.

The Commission and the ECJ are not elected but lots of countries have unelected courts and civil services. This is within the bounds of accepted democratic practice. You could argue they could be elected but there are sound reasons for rejecting that.

You may dislike the balance of power and the structure within the EU but it simply is a democratic organisation. Unarguably.

For people in the U.K. with our one elected chamber, the mish mash that is the HoL, lack of checks and balances and serious issues around devolution (West Lothian question) to point the finger and criticise democratic practice in another organisation is more than ironic.

How is that not democratic?

You asked. I answered. See it's simple.

I’m sure leavers have loads and loads of brilliant benefits to the Uk after end of March, they just don’t want to discuss them on a discussion board about Brexit,
am I right?
They’d rather discuss

I’m looking forward to the government having the opportunity to do good things like scrapping VAT on domestic gas and electricity, scrapping the tampon tax, banning exports of live lambs and calves for slaughter in Europe and imposing minimum alcohol pricing - all great ideas that haven’t been possible due to our membership of the EU, according to an article I’ve been reading in The Spectator this morning. And if they don’t take those opportunities then they can be truly held to account, rather than blaming anything bad that happens in this country on Brussels.

imposing minimum alcohol pricing - all great ideas that haven’t been possible due to our membership of the EU,

Guess you don’t live in Scotland then, as it manages to have minimum alcohol pricing whilst being in the EU.

You do know they have a minimum price for alcohol in Scotland don't you?

If you read that in The Spectator and they have written stuff that is just factually wrong, does that not make you think what else they might have lied about?

I did meet somebody who voted out because of the export of live animals, that was the most important thing to her an presumably she thinks is worth all the damage Brexit will do to slightly increase the chance of banning this. So, yes, she was right a concrete benefit, slightly increasing the chance of a ban.

Another farmer I met wanted to get rid of his hedgerows and put stock fencing instead, much cheaper and easier to maintain. He though that outside of the EU there would be a slight increase in the chance that we would be allowed to do this. Presumably he also thinks turning the country into an international laughing stock and costing us billions is worth it.

The few sheep that died in Ramsgate (which is driving this) had come from a UK producer, who could have made their journey much more comfortable, in or out of the eu.
4000 animals are transported on the hoof, a tiny amount of the total killed in the uk and the travel period will still be 8 hours.
Every year in the UK approximately 2.6 million cattle, 10 million pigs, 14.5 million sheep and lambs, 80 million fish and 950 million birds are slaughtered for human consumption

I'd be more concerned with standards in the UK, farm, transport and slaughter houses.

Good point on VAT @ 5%, the tampon rate is ridiculous but given Carbon targets, i think you'll be waiting a long time for vat to be removed on energy!

I have rarely heard the EU being blamed for UK issues by the Government, the vast majority of issues that affect our daily lives are UK problems that we could solve all on our own.

Looks like we could scrap the tampon tax within the EU.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35834142

You do have a point about the slightly increased chance of getting a ban on the export of live animals, given how powerful the NFU are I think it is still very unlikely there would be a ban.

Imo all the costs and damage of Brexit would not be worth this, even if Brexit did result in a ban on transporting animals long distances and I say that as somebody who would be strongly in favour of such a ban.

medium.com/the-jist/was-eu-tax-evasion-regulation-the-reason-for-the-brexit-referendum-980ba88a8077

I’m sure this is absolutely just a coincidence and not at all a way for rich tories who get richer through offshore tax avoidance schemes to get even richer

Not to mention that the majority of complaints people have about immigration are due to the UK’s implementation of the law, and nothing to do with the EU ‘forcing’ us to do anything.

And as for trade... A good example is Japan. Lots of jobs in car manufacturing especially, as well as recent technological and medical projects set up in the uk. However, due to Brexit, Japan have chosen to sign up with the EU and drop the UK. So wave goodbye to all those jobs. There is no advantage to them continuing to have trade deals with the UK post Brexit. That’s pretty stark.

But yeah. No strawberries in winter? WORTH IT!!

30th March.

I didn't say it was worth it. I question asked is what we can look forwards to not if it's worth it or not. Answers are always going to be sarcastic, oh so it's worth it answers, aren't they?

Trying to think positive rather than all the scare stories. We re in this now, rightly or wrongly and the only thing we can do is wait and see what happens. We can't change it so I just hope that these scare stories don't happen.

If you don't want strawberries in winter, just don't buy them (I'm sure you don't). What you're seeing as a benefit of Brexit is stopping other people having the choice to buy strawberries in winter If they want them.