***WARNING DISTRESSING CONTENT*** 139 Women murdered by men in 2017

[CaveMum]

I know IANBU but posting here for traffic.

The 2017 Femicide Census was released late yesterday, detailing the women murdered in the UK by men during 2017. Here’s the Guardian’s coverage

DISTRESSING CONTENT

Three-quarters of women killed by men in the UK in 2017 knew the perpetrator, according to a report on femicide.

The Femicide Census, conducted by Women’s Aid and the campaigner Karen Ingala Smith, found that of the 139 women known to have been killed by men in the UK last year, 105 (76%) knew their killer. Thirty women were killed by strangers, with 21 of the 30 killed in terrorist attacks.

The report found that 64 of the women, or 46%, were killed by a current or former intimate partner. Another 24 (17%) were killed by a man known to them – such as a colleague, neighbour or friend – while 17 (12%) were killed by a male family member, of whom 10 were killed by their son. The perpetrator’s relationship to the victim could not be established in four cases.

A sharp instrument was used as a weapon in 66 cases, or 47%, while 82 (59%) were killed at home. More than half of women killed by a former partner were killed within the first month of separation; almost 90% of the same subset were killed within the first year of separation.

For the first time, the Femicide Census collected data on “overkilling”, killings where the force or method used was greater than that required to kill the victim. “Overkilling” was evident in 58 (42%) of the cases.

In one case, a victim was stabbed 175 times, while in others women were “hit 40 times with an axe”, “bludgeoned repeatedly” and “battered virtually beyond all recognition”.

Ingala Smith, the chief executive of the domestic violence charity Nia, said: “The use of excessive violence or desecration after death challenges narratives of momentary loss of control that are especially prevalent in relation to domestic violence.

“Instead it highlights the brutality and misogyny that men bring to their violence against women whether dead or alive and challenges benign rationales given by men which are often accepted and repeated in media coverage of the killings of women.”

Smith said the report challenged widely held assumptions about the nature of violence in society. “The dominant perception of knife crime is one of young men and street violence yet the Femicide Census tells us that 47% of women were killed by knives or sharp objects; in fact, this is the most common method used by men to kill women,” she said.

“It may also surprise some to learn that 40% of women killed by men were aged over 45 and 14% were over the age of 66. Where analyses of violent crime do not look at sex disaggregated data, violence against women continues to be overlooked and made invisible.”

Katie Ghose, the chief executive of Women’s Aid, called on the government to ensure its domestic abuse bill, due to be published imminently, delivered both the legislation and the resources needed to respond effectively to domestic abuse.

“Time and time again, we hear of cases where a woman has been killed by a man as an ‘isolated incident’; yet the latest Femicide Census report shows yet again that this is not the case,” she said. “The majority of these cases are not isolated incidents. There are too many similarities in the circumstances where women are killed by men.”

The Femicide Census contains information on more than 1,000 women killed by men in England and Wales since 2009, Northern Ireland as of 2015 and Scotland as of 2017. A number of cases of suspected femicide are still under investigation, making it likely that the real 2017 figure is higher than that recorded by the report.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/18/femicide-in-uk-76-of-women-killed-by-men-in-2017-knew-their-killer

Men that have been violent to previous partners must be made to have to legally disclose it to all future partners.

a whole bunch of us lived it already
namalt is not true

I'm sorry of your experience of men has lead you to believe us all to be the same.

Men that have been violent to previous partners must be made to have to legally disclose it to all future partners

Should they be allowed future partners? Some people make a case for paying debt to society, etc, but after a lengthy time studying conditioning (eg: prison rehab), there is not much of a case for claiming it has any robust effect long term. Indeed the theory is self-defeating on this.

Notwithstanding further understanding of mental health (as in serious conditions that push people to act abnormally and without control); I am more of the mind that someone who has gone down that path sacrifices their entitlement to free relationships. Their victims live with it every day, so why the forgive (and forget?) for the perpetrator?

Once upon a time a life meant life in prison sentencing. Why not bring this back for DV? Yes, prison costs, but there are other solutions to that.

not all men murder their partners but a great many of them abuse them financially, emotionally, sexually in subtle and manipulative ways - and society often normalises this - domestic abuse, violence, rape etc serve a purpose which is why society through the law etc doesn't act the way you would 'expect' (as a man)

Whatever your reason for joining this thread AdamNichol I think it has, probably inadvertently, been quite illuminating.

I get that if my biological sex was statistically the most violent, but I myself was not violent, I'd want to make that clear. But this thread is about men who are violent, who have actually killed women. The discussion then broadened into other types and levels of violence against women, those which are "every day" and don't make headlines or spreadsheets.

Your attitude, whether intended or not, is a perfect example of how so many men treat women who speak out, who don't mind hurting men's feelings, who are done with being kind. We don't care if you're not turned on by violent porn, or don't see aggression in men generally. Lots of people on this thread do see that aggression.

Minimising women's experiences, views, their right to dissent, feeling like you're being picked on, are - I think - great examples of male entitlement. If this thread was reversed I would NEVER go on and minimise men's feelings if they were disproportionately killed by women. Women generally just don't behave like that, but lots of men do.

We've talked about where this propensity for male violence comes from. I think it's many layered, and much is very subtle and imbibed at an almost subconscious level. As a tiny example, I never watch the serial killer/murder type series. A few years ago I thought sod it, I'm sick of yet another three part series which begins with a young girl laying on a mortuary table. Followed by grisly details, lots of swaggering male cops and "difficult" women.

This is not saying people watch these shows and go on to become serial killers. If only life/people were that straight forward. It's just a tiny part of the fabric of life where women are portrayed in a certain light in relation to men.

I don’t know anything about having cancer. Ive not had it, I’ve not nursed anyone through it, I’m not a doctor or a researcher. It doenst affect my life.

So I thought I’d educate myself by popping along to some cancer support groups and telling that they are doing it wrong. I could give the doctors the benefit of my theories, because it’s people like me that they need to centre in their thinking.

For this analogy to work you would have to be e.g. a benign tumour and studying you probably would be valuable.

If namalt is not true then ALL men must be the same. So, I must be
an abusive murderer-in-waiting then?
I'm sorry for the experience of women at the hands of men. But I do not share the blame for it

I was ever so slightly tongue in cheek with my last comment. But it's said so often it's losing something. A man says namalt, we roll our eyes and say sure of course namalt. Man goes away happy he defended his people, we carry on til the next time. And yet so many women have had inappropriate things happen to them by men from leering to groping to rape to assault etc. It simply cannot be just A few men. If you added up incidents and worked it out? I don't know the answer.

And Yes you do share the blame. Sorry but ya just do.
From patriarchy all the way down to the one time you thought in your head or even said out loud "she was asking for it"

If namalt is not true then ALL men must be the same

You’re missing the point. Every woman knows not all men are the same.

However on a thread about female death at the hands of men, it absolutely isn’t a salient point.

It's just a tiny part of the fabric of life where women are portrayed in a certain light in relation to men.

With you saying this and then earlier in your post talking about TV dramas beginning with a young woman lying on a mortuary slab, it gave me a thought about the language used by the media in reference to women who are killed in RL. It's never "28 year old woman killed" (or whatever age) instead it's always "prostitute killed", "mother of two killed", "model killed", and so on because even at the end we are defined (and pigeonholed) by our role.

Adam, here’s some helpful links for you

feministing.com/2014/05/30/an-open-letter-to-privileged-people-who-play-devils-advocate/

everydayfeminism.com/2016/10/yes-actually-it-is-all-men/

I think we need to seriously consider Adam's POV and work out why it is unhelpful (and it is).

The many men killed by other men... did they have a relationship with their murderer? Was it stranger crime?

There is something so chilling about women being unable to avoid murderous men, that people they have lived with and people they have trusted have murdered them.

When men are murdered, does it tend to be when they intervene in fights, crimes etc? When is it happening, how could they protect themselves?

@AdamNicol, if you really want to be part of the solution you need to be prepared to police the behaviour of other men. A man you're with leers at a young women, pull him up for it and tell him it's inappropriate. A man you're with makes an inappropriate comment to a women, pull him up on it, tell him it's inappropriate.

How many men would be prepared to do this, every single time they are with a man who behaves inappropriately? Because until all the men who aren't like that start policing the behaviour of those who are, nothing is going to change.

@Adam wholly agree with policing your peers. Trying to do this as a mere woman is fucking agony. Yet we do it. Every day. We need you and your brothers to step up and challenge the microaggressions we experience day in day out. Only then will the culture begin to change.

I don’t know if I agee that men should be ‘policing’ their peers. I think individuals have to take responsibility for their own actions...

I need to think about this some more.

Police my peers - why are you so certain I don't already do this? Fact if the matter is that I know few people, and none of them do this (at least not when I'm there).

Part of the patriarch - how do, other than being born with a penis? Or do my actions in life count for nothing?
I'm sensitive about this because a great uncle of mine (not blood relation) was a bi-polar gambling addict who was hugely abusive prior to his suicide. The effects on his blood line are pretty raw even now. But I have no connection to any system that helped enable this type of thing.

Adam, honey .... no one cares about your uncle, the few people you know or the fact you don't think about patriarchy and how you are the problem.

wholly agree with policing your peers. Trying to do this as a mere woman is fucking agony. Yet we do it. Every day. We need you and your brothers to step up and challenge the microaggressions we experience day in day out. Only then will the culture begin to change.

And when women do challenge it or moved out of what men think is our lane we get trashed for it.

Don't respond to a man's chat-up lines? You must be frigid, a lesbian, playing hard to get, a man-hater.

Speak your opinion? Harpie, mouthy cow, bitch, man-hater.

Driven/motivated at work? Ball-breaker, bitch, cold/frigid, man-hater.

Feminist? Probably a lesbian, mouthy, bitch, man-hater.

Calling out a man on inappropriate behaviour? Uptight, bitch, snowflake, man-hater.

And these are not my opinions, you only need to read the comment sections on any article or news story relating to women or the Twitter feeds of any prominently 'outspoken' women.

@YoungLennyGodber Tue 18-Dec-18 17:44:13
I don’t know if I agee that men should be ‘policing’ their peers. I think individuals have to take responsibility for their own actions...

I know what you mean, but it's the patriarchy, innit, and men who behave in that way will only change if they're shamed out of the behaviour by other men. The same way behaviour changes had to happen regarding drink driving, smoking in public . . . yes, some still do, but most people feel the social stigma of doing such things and would therefore avoid them.

On the first page there was a mention about a curfew, imagine if you'd said the crime rates are higher in black people, so no blacks should be allowed out after dark - it'd rightly be considered outrageous, why should bigotry against men, or the Welsh, or any other groupe be tolerated?*

Yeah. Imagine if one group of people were advised and expected to not go about their lawful everyday business because of the actions of others. Having to modify their own behaviours and responses to appease others.

But apparently when it's women having to do this it's just 'comment sense' and acceptable.

I'm sorry of your experience of men has lead you to believe us all to be the same.

Which is just another way of saying "not all men". We know it's not all men but when you're more offended by the thought that we might be saying it's all men than the actual actions of those men, you're part of the problem. Ask any woman if they have ever been treated inappropriately by a man (i.e., harassed, harmed, frightened, etc) and I can 100% guarantee you that every single one of them will be able to tell you about a time where this has happened, many will have several stories, because every woman at some point has been treated inappropriately by a man. It's not all men but it is enough of them that it is a societal problem and it does make women cautious of men. There's a Margaret Atwood quote and it goes along the lines of "men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will kill them".

Wow - a sensitive thread like this trolled by a man. AdamNichol - you were asked to 'read the room' way back in this thread but instead you have blundered on determined that women will listen to your opinions and derailing the thread to focus on your own views and experiences.

Sorry this happened OP. Today I am still reeling from the sentencing of John Broadhurst for a disgusting 2 years & 8 months. That poor woman and such an outrageous verdict:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3448475-John-Broadhurst

@EwItsAHooman just last month my 4 year old daughter was described as “bossy” by a teacher at parents evening.

I thought to myself afterwards that I wish I’d challenged the teacher, I bet if my DD were a boy the teacher would have said confident/opinionated, but no she was called bossy. Why is confidence in a girl always described negatively?

NAMALT. But BOMALT - Basically Only Men Are Like That.

Violence is a male problem and we are not allowed to talk about it. Because car accidents. And cancer. And trips and falls

My recent feminist reawakening (always a feminist but re-radicalised by you-know-what totally overwhelming male entitlement movement currently infecting our lives) has brought with it a greater sense of how much we are not allowed to talk about the male problem of violence and sexual predation. This thread is a prime example. Violence is a male problem. Not all men. But BOMALT.

I think where I’m struggling with the ‘policing’ idea is... when men interact with each other in that type of situation, there’ll probably be a threat of physical violence.

If a man was acting inappropriately towards a woman, another man might pull him up on it. But there’s no guarantee he’d take the suggestion kindly, and might threaten the well-intentioned man with harm. It’s not fair to expect him to suffer for the wrongdoing of another man... he did nothing wrong, yet may be punished for his intervention. I’m not sure what the right solution is in that situation. Still mulling it over! Food for thought on this thread.