to wonder if a second referendum is a good idea?

[brizzledrizzle]

The Sunday Times are running a headline that the PM's team are planning one. Part of me thinks it's a good idea, part of me thinks that the country has already voted and can't afford another referendum.

What. The governments official leave campaign was fined?

I voted to end freedom of movement.

Good luck with that. Non EU migration is higher than EU migration. Without immigration entire industries come to a standstill.

Which Leave MP’s have been fined for lying?

@surferjet

I have a wide social circle and in my experience its impossible to categorise who voted what. I have v poor relatives from the North West who voted leave and I have highly educated friends around London area who voted leave and all those in between.

My one observation is that many remain voters live in lovely areas of the North West and around London and have been very sheltered. Some of renainers I have met thought we would literally be cut off from the eu and not able to live there or visit anymore.

Another voted remain for holiday reasons.

So going down that abusive rabbit hole of an argument is pointless.

I totally respect why people want to remain. I looked carefully at both sides of the argument. Throughout my education that's what I have been taught to do. To consider all information.

For me this time, from personal experience and research I came out for leave. The other leave voters I know are very educated, considered, people.

Respect each others vote and moved forward.

Augusta, at least you admit that no deal would be a disaster for this country.

However, if there is no deal it is not the fault of the EU. The EU negotiated an agreement with the UK which has been accepted by the PM. It would be the UK which is refusing to take it.

At the summit this week, Merkel asked May what changes would need to be made so it would pass. May could not answer as she did not know. It is simply impossible to negotiate with a partner that does not know what it would accept.

It all seems to come down to the backstop and I cannot say this loud enough. TWO-THIRDS OF NI IS IN FAVOUR OF THE BACKSTOP! The backstop is there to preserve peace and prevent the reemergence of a 30 year civil war in the UK.

It beggars belief that a large part of the UK population are happy to have shortages of food, medicine and see a collapse in investment and factories moving overseas, and risk reigniting an actual civil war in the UK. And for what?????

Either grab May’s deal with both hands, or rerun the vote.

What. The governments official leave campaign was fined?

"The government" didn't have an official leave campaign.

The government" didn't have an official leave campaign

What did they have then?

Just a remain campaign?

I’m trying to find out which MP’s who came out in support of leave have been fined for lying.
Can you tell me?

I thought the biggest lie was the statement that millions a week would go into the NHS - which Firags immediately, almost comically backtracked on once the referendum results were in. There is also the fact that we were told it would be an incredibly easy process (!), that we would still remain in the single market (which is now being directly opposed by Brexiteers even if May wants to stay in it) and the whole Turkey thing which is not based on a foundation of fact as Turkey joining the EU is a long and complicated process subject to much criteria being met by Turkey.

These are just the main ones. The point is as well, is that there were no caveats whatsoever to say “this is what we think could or might happen” - this was given as fact and we should be able to trust that people in power can be accurate about such a large decision.

Despite what so many leavers say, as a remainder I have no animosity towards leave voters. It’s not your fault that the campaign was so crooked.

But now that 2 years have passed and we have had a glimpse of what Brexit really means - well it doesn’t seem very positive does it. We’ve gone from being told that we’re negotiating the best deal from a position of power and will come off strong “because the EU needs us”, to clambering around frantically trying to secure a deal that won’t completely fuck us over, and the rift it’s caused within our own government (and population) is immense, while other shit Tory initiatives and failings slip by unnoticed under the murky shade cast by Brexit.

Despite wanting a second referendum and to have another chance to overturn this, I cannot wait for this all to finally be over. It’s very stressful.

Don’t understand why another vote being bad for democracy is being used as an argument.

The first vote was not “good democracy.” We were lied to. We didn’t have enough information, even if the lies are set aside, to make an informed decision. We didn’t actually know where voting leave would take us. This is not how votes in a good democracy should work.

What did they have then?

A divided party. Same as they had 40 years ago. Same as they have now.

Just a remain campaign?

It was cross party.

Yes to a new vote. The options should be Remain or Theresa May's deal. She has told us time and time again that it is the best possible deal. The EU has told us they will not renegotiate so those have to be the options on the table.

The vote should not be 3 way (leave with deal, leave with no deal, remain) because this splits the leave vote and will not actually get us anywhere.

We had an ADVISORY, NON-BINDING referendum so disregarding this result is not undemocratic.

During the referendum, we were lied to.
Anyone who tried to voice genuine concerns was accused of 'Project Fear' so the result cannot be accurate, therefore it is not undemocratic to have an informed, fact-based vote.

So no MP or anyone to do with the official leave campaign has been fined for lying.

Thanks for confirming.

The trouble with a no deal option is that it violates the Good Friday Agreement (remember Ireland).

The GFA is an international treaty. Can parliament, in good faith, put forward an option that will mean the U.K. (potentially) breaks international law?

No deal is not the simple option it will result in even more of the extended negotiations and bollocks than we have at the moment.

FrankGrimes what a slippery way to avoid the issue. The Official Leave Campaign regardless of who you want to try and pin it on, was guilty of misinformation and illegal overspend.

What’s the justification for that? How is it democratic to hold a vote and live by the results as a result of such a campaign, especially when the majority was so tiny to begin with?

The official leave campaign - no.

Other leave campaigners were fined.

As the referendum was advisory and not legally binding criminal prosecutions are unlikely to take place in relation to the lies told.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/17/vote-leave-fined-and-reported-to-police-by-electoral-commission-brexit

Vote Leave, which was the official designated campaign for Britain to leave the EU during the referendum, fronted by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, exceeded its legal spending limit of £7m by almost £500,000, the watchdog found.

Silverdoe I'm a remainer. There is no justification for lies and misinformation.

So they were fined for over spending?

That’s it?

lol.

So in a nutshell, some leave voters are going to try and be smug that leave campaigners weren't fined?
I mean the lies and misleading and exceeding the correct spending and setting up subsidiary campaigns etcwere all totally fine because 'haha the official campaign wasn't fined'?

What a bizarre view

surferjet no one has been prosecuted. It doesn’t mean it’s not morally reprihensible and it doesn’t mean that no one should be prosecuted - are you really so naive? The Met police are currently being investigated for why they have mysteriously “dropped” the investigation into the Brexit campaign.

It’s also far too complex to just “fine someone for lying” A whole investigation would need to be done and for some reason (can’t think why at all ) this isn’t being carried out.

The lies are still self evident whether they’ve been fined or not, surely? And they have still been fined for overfunding which is dodgy on its own.

I just wonder if anyone would want to negotiate how we have been forced to negotiate in brexit?

Parliament has shackled and dragged on the the heels of the negotiation!

Most people know the first rule of any negotiation where stakes are high is a genuine desire to walk away.

I do feel had parliament got behind the result, and backed the pm to get the best deal we would be in a better position.

What's happened is two years have been wasted by mps who havant accepted the result and tried to stop brexit.

So we end up with a the worst of both worlds.

I don't see an issues with brexit but I see massive issues with the the way our mps are working simultaneously to deliver it and stop it leaving us paralysed.

Shameful.

So they were fined for over spending?

That’s it?

lol.

Funny how quick leavers are to see their precious democratic values flushed down the toilet.

GhostofFrankGrimes very sorry I’ve been reading you and surferjet posts concurrently and I’ve misinterpreted your post.

I literally can’t believe surferjet that the fact that they weren’t able to pin down an individual to blame (actually it was scapegoated wasn’t it? Onto a Studen or something?) is 1) something that vindicates the campaigners and 2) something to actually be proud about?