to wonder if a second referendum is a good idea?

[brizzledrizzle]

The Sunday Times are running a headline that the PM's team are planning one. Part of me thinks it's a good idea, part of me thinks that the country has already voted and can't afford another referendum.

Turkey may well join the EU in the future. What makes you think that could never happen?

Of course, it "could" happen, but there's so many issues to deal with, it probably won't be for another 2 or 3 decades. Considering the illegal Turkish occupation of northern Cyprus hasn't been solved in nearly 50 years, despite Cyprus being a EU state, it doesn't look as if relations between Turkey and EU are particular good at the moment. It could well take another 10/20 years to solve the Cyprus problem and it's impossible to comprehend Turkey joining the EU until Cyprus is sorted.

Trump has already declared his disgust at EU member states not contributing enough to their own protection.

Yes. EU members are failing to even meet NATOs minimum requirements for military spending. France is already on a warning from the EU that they’re being watched because the EU doesn’t believe France can afford the public spending it’s already committed to without bringing an EU army into it.

Who the fuck is going to pay for this army?

Russia is certainly threatening on the Eastern frontiers, yes. Wasn't there something about a grab in Ukraine recently?

It would help if British media would report on international developments in more detail rather than which celebrity of the moment is in bed with whom and whose butt is the biggest. And if the British people would read them.

Jesus wept. Russia annexed the Crimea which has had heavy media coverage. In 2014. I certainly don’t think you’re in any sort of position to be lecturing other people about not being informed enough and being ignorant of foreign affairs.

The EU has been expanding gradually eastward threatening Russian borders for years. The EU agitated in Ukraine for a revolution to overthrow a democratically elected pro Russian government and replace it with a pro EU government. Could you imagine if Russia was trying to overthrow an elected French or Irish government and replace them with a pro Russia regime? We’re already told we should be terrified of Russia on the basis of much worse than that, but apparently Russia shouldn’t be scared about an openly aggressive EU expanding to their borders? What a load of rubbish. Crimea was a fairly restrained response to European aggression.

And the Russian trolls are in action I see

Considering the illegal Turkish occupation of northern Cyprus hasn't been solved in nearly 50 years, despite Cyprus being a EU state, it doesn't look as if relations between Turkey and EU are particular good at the moment.

Oh you reckon? What happened to the EU being the magical bringer of peace by removing borders as per NI?

The things that are currently blocking Turkish membership are their over fondness of military coups and torture.

"Who the fuck is going to pay for this army?"

There isn't going to be one, but using France as the measure of debt to GDP for the EU is not accurate. Most countries in the EU have far lower than France ( and the UK).

And the Russian trolls are in action I see

Everyone I don't like is a Russian/Conservative/Nazi Troll!!

That type of comment really shows that someone has their finger on the pulse of politics and in no way shape or form is just parroting what little information they have gleaned from the rag tops.

And the Russian trolls are in action I see

That is so weak.

I’d like to know which part of Russia I’m in. It looks strangely like Yorkshire I see.

"That is so weak."

Yet MN was targeted by politically motivated posters who disappeared immediately after the referendum. and has been the target of it every time Brexit appears to be going badly.

There isn't going to be one, but using France as the measure of debt to GDP for the EU is not accurate. Most countries in the EU have far lower than France ( and the UK).*

Sigh. Have you missed the whole business with the yellow jackets the last few weeks? Macron being forced to come up with a whole raft of expensive concessions the EU says he can’t afford?

And other countries in the EU might have lower debt levels, but they also have tiny economies. The three largest economies after Germany, Spain, France and Italy have debt problems. The other EU economies are not anywhere near as large as theirs. Do you seriously expect Belgium and the Netherlands to pony up for a world class army of millions?

Where is the money coming from?

Yes Russia annexed the Crimea. No, I don't know the full story of the Ukraine. I was complaining about the lack of information as much as anything else. Proclaiming Russia's innocence in Eastern Europe is a bit silly. EU expanding eastwards is presumably referencing the states on Russia's frontier (including Finland incidentally) which rejected the Iron Curtain and have been asking for European assistance ever since. Ukraine is where the current borders of influence are in conflict. It's very difficult to tell what is going on there as both parties claim injury. A quick google brings up this current story: www.dw.com/en/russia-to-deploy-warplanes-to-crimea-amid-ukraine-standoff/a-46775626 which suggests that Russia is definitely committing armed provocations in response, they claim, to armed provocations from Ukraine. I don't know the full background.

The point is that EU territory needs defending, as do we all. Does Britain now want to turn it's back and let Russia do what it wants or assist our European allies in keeping the diversity of Europe secure?

lYet MN was targeted by politically motivated posters who disappeared immediately after the referendum. and has been the target of it every time Brexit appears to be going badly.

Mumsnet is flooded daily with Remain propaganda on a far, far higher scale than anything Leavers do, but that’s just fine and dandy. And has it occurred to you these posters disappear because remain and the left are notoriously fond of the report button and targeted campaigns to get rid of anyone who dares challenge them?

You really just can’t handle the fact that lots of people really disagree with you can you? You’re just in complete denial that anybody could possibly just genuinely disagree with you aren’t you? You can’t conceive that anybody could possibly disagree with you without being a paid agent.

Do you have any idea how arrogant that is?

Remain propaganda. That would be the technical notices the government has published and the £2billion approved by the Cabinet to support NonDeal preparations. That's just to piss you off @Augusta2012 ?

No, I don't know the full story of the Ukraine. I was complaining about the lack of information as much as anything else.

There’s plenty of information out there if you bother to look. Just because you’ve not seen something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Yes, and a quick google shows that there is bad blood on both sides going back centuries. It's been particularly delicate over there recently. You came across as trying to suggest that Russia is the permanently innocent injured party, which is obvious nonsense.

"Sigh. Have you missed the whole business with the yellow jackets the last few weeks? Macron being forced to come up with a whole raft of expensive concessions the EU says he can’t afford"

He'll have to puit the taxes up on the rich, or raise it from somewhere else/

Germany has much lower debt than the UK, and no the other economies don't have tiny economies. 15 of the top 30 economies in the world are in the EU.

I notice how you aren't mentioning that all but 2 EU countries have lower debt to GDP than the USA.

Hahah remain propaganda.

I don't notice any remain posters here using a style, with the LEAVE in caps, or being here 24/7 as the leave shills were.

People can disagree, and of course I can deal with it. But I will critique their reasons for disagreeing.

like that the EU would have forced an army on the UK had it remained.

Would never have happened, and even if there are plans for it post the UK leaving, that is the EU's decision, and one that the UK would have been party to if it was still a member

one that the UK would have been party to if it was still a member

This is the whole point really isn't it. In Europe we have power equal to Germany: through the EU's 27-8 we collectively have influence. Some believe that outside the EU we can somehow magically have a bigger influence. How? There was never an answer, just as there was never a plan. Either that, or we have the cop-out answer that Britain should just retire and look after its sheep farms, although how that's going to feed all 65 million of the people on this island is another question that doesn't have an answer.

Proclaiming Russia's innocence in Eastern Europe is a bit silly. EU expanding eastwards is presumably referencing the states on Russia's frontier (including Finland incidentally) which rejected the Iron Curtain and have been asking for European assistance ever since.

The point is that EU territory needs defending, as do we all. Does Britain now want to turn it's back and let Russia do what it wants or assist our European allies in keeping the diversity of Europe secure?

I’m just aghast someone could put these two comments in the same statement and not see the massive hypocrisy.

Why on earth do you think it’s okay for the EU to want to defend itself but you condemn Russia and say they’re bad for doing exactly the same thing by seeking to prevent the EU from expanding to it’s border.

The USSR was another organisation that used hostile tactics to coerce countries to stay in its sphere. We certainly would have been very worried indeed if they had expanded that sphere to our border. I’m not sure why you can’t understand why Russia wouldn’t feel the same.

I certainly wouldn’t be happy about an expansionist state run by a drunk who has to be hidden from view after lunchtime because he so pissed extending into a state next to me.

As for the EU having armed capabilities, do you do you really fancy a drunk with his finger on the nuclear button? He was falling over drunk at a conference with the leaders of African countries yesterday. And you really can’t see why Russia would be nervous about that man controllining armies on their border?

So you believe the EU is so nice nobody could possibly be reasonably scared of them. Yet their currently threatening to essentially blockade us and deny us essential supplies if we leave? Threatening to destroy us economically if we don’t do as they tell us? And you think they are nice benign people who can be trusted?

Crazy.

Yet their currently threatening to essentially blockade us and deny us essential supplies if we leave?

Are they? Not heard that one before.

We are considering leaving the trade agreements. But you want them in place at the same time?

In Europe we have power equal to Germany:

Do you seriously believe that? You’re deluded.

Depends on the specific question involved. There are the other 26 to consider. France might just possibly have an opinion too on most things.

Are they? Not heard that one before.

You haven’t seen the hysterical posts on here saying no deal will mean no food and medicine? You just said yourself we wouldn’t be able to feed our people.

We are considering leaving the trade agreements. But you want them in place at the same time?

Ah yes. The Remainers last refuge of a scoundrel. Rules is rules and the EU would be perfectly reasonable to sit back and watch people starve and die while refusing to let through supplies that could save them. Just like the UK did to Ireland during the potato famine. Which is regarded as a crime against humanity.

Basically Remainers are endorsing and justifying a crime against humanity. Justifying an act which involves the exact behaviours which are regarded as some of the most evil acts in history.

Germany is the only country in Europe who have a surplus of money instead of debt. That financial clout allows them to exert a huge amount of control over the rest of Europe that the UK and France couldn’t even dream of.

Brexit means leaving the EU. The remaining states will be foreign powers. They will have no obligation towards us. Trade will be stopped unless there is an agreement to the contrary. Whether they will charitably send in red cross parcels or the various equivalents is an entirely different matter.

This is our choice. They have tried to discuss and argue against it. They will not, cannot, force us to stay against our will, not without acting like the tyrants you claim.

How are Remainers endorsing a crime against humanity when Leavers are choosing this?

Choosing it for us too, against our will, I might add.

The EU is not threatening anything at all. Reality is threatening the UK! EU states just don't want to self destruct on the orders of the UK (ok, only part of the uk and now a minority within the UK). The EU also has a duty to uphold the GFA and defend the interest of their member states such as Ireland. No one in the EU is celebrating what's happening or looking forward to the looming UK-made mess, but they have to logically defend their own interests. Comments such as Augusta's are aggressive falsehoods. The uk is not made to leave, the EU doesnt complain about uk citizens constantly, doesnt insult them as EU citizens have been here. No one wants a poor UK on their doorstep. THE UK IS HAVING A PSYCHOTIC FIT AND UNILATERALLY THREATENING TO TEAR UP ALL ITS AGREEMENTS AND PARTNERSHIPS WITH THE EU. Seriously tired of the dishonest propaganda spread by paid trolls.