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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wonder if a second referendum is a good idea?

695 replies

brizzledrizzle · 15/12/2018 23:00

The Sunday Times are running a headline that the PM's team are planning one. Part of me thinks it's a good idea, part of me thinks that the country has already voted and can't afford another referendum.

OP posts:
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WhenISnappedAndFarted · 15/12/2018 23:44

It's a mess.

Normally I would say we voted, remain lost, we need to leave. However, I know some people who voted brexit and they all voted for different things.

One wanted to stay in the EU Hmm but wanted immigrants out of his country so voted leave. One hates the EU and he's perfectly happy with having immigrants and would be perfectly happy with open borders. Others voted because it was a protest vote or they just wanted to leave and that's just a few people I know so others have different reasons.

I do think that another vote with these options is the fairest way to do it and then nobody can complain:

  • leave with deal
  • leave without deal
  • remain

We know what all outcomes are now so why not vote on it?

PurpleFlower1983 · 15/12/2018 23:47

Yes. No one had a fucking clue what they were voting for and many voted on lies spouted by bumbling Tory idiots.

ButteryParsnips · 15/12/2018 23:50

If we had a vote and remain won, presumably we could have another vote in 3years time, then 3 years after that abc so on?

Farage had said that if the result had been as close, ie 52-48 in Remain's favour, it would have not been considered a done deal. He and other Leave backers would have agitated for another go.

WhenISnappedAndFarted · 15/12/2018 23:52

@ButteryParsnips - if I remember rightly, at one point in the evening some people had said it was going to go remains way and Farage was already calling for a second referendum.

Singletomingle · 15/12/2018 23:53

Everyone was duped just like all those students that voted for Corbyn to have their student debt written off. I would accept a new vote but most sources suggest a 2 option vote take the deal or remain.

Sammy867 · 15/12/2018 23:55

Yes. The original referendum was to close. There should be a clear majority winner when looking at constitutional change in my opinion.

The question in the next referendum should be the deal we have secured if we left vs staying in the EU then at least we are voting what could actually be rather than an idea (which was incorrect regardless).

SheWoreBlueVelvet · 15/12/2018 23:56

No.

If the vote changed back to remain then it essentially one all to each side Doesn't help There would be a call for a third ballot.

We should just leave, see what works or doesn't and change governments accordingly to suit the politics of the time.

MissSingerbrains · 15/12/2018 23:59

Yes it’s a great idea.

willsa · 15/12/2018 23:59

NO! I just don't think it binds well for democracy.
Imagine if some other country would ignore a referendum vote. Say...Russia. I can just imagine the international public outrage. Our politicians would give speeches on human rights abuse, on fake democracy..etc.
But if it's UK - hey, everything goes.

Davespecifico · 15/12/2018 23:59

Another referendum won't happen.

AGHHHH · 16/12/2018 00:04

By the way, the votes aren't counted individually are they... It's by area? What were the results per head, if they were announced?

Ninoo25 · 16/12/2018 00:05

I think that’s only in a general election. In a referendum every vote is counted

Singletomingle · 16/12/2018 00:07

The deal is just an idea no guarantees and if France is anything to go by no guarantees staying in. Also what would happen with the 17 million leave voters if remain wins at best I'd say ukip suddenly gain 10 million voters and both labour and conservatives lose 5 million each anyone happy with Tommy Robinson as prime minister?

Jorgezaunders · 16/12/2018 00:11

Politicians keep on about 'delivering the Brexit people voted for'. Question is, which Brexit is that? The one where the NHS gets £350 million a week more money, or the one where house prices drop 30%, fruit farmers go bust, and we have to pay £7.50 every time we want to hop over to France for cheap wine? I don't think it's unreasonable to have a public vote to figure out the details.

swimmerforlife · 16/12/2018 00:12

Yes. It is a complete and utter shambles.

I never understood why we did not have a non binding referendum (asking if we want to leave / remain), then a binding referendum proposing the deal.

2isabella2 · 16/12/2018 00:15

I'm totally in favour of a new referendum. A lot of older people voted leave - a lot of older people have died in the last few year and younger ones have reached voting age. Let's have a vote on the population as it is now with more facts.

OccasionallyIncomplet · 16/12/2018 00:15

The problem you will have is to set precedent for every important vote in the future. If another vote is allowed and remain win this time, where does it then end?

Leavers will want a further vote in a few years. Add to this matters such as Scottish independence - the 'vote of a generation!' - yep, that be back in 2 years.....etc etc.

Once they open that stable door, the horse will never go back in. They will effectively damage democracy in the UK for for foreseeable future as any result will be completely challengeable.

Added to this - we will now be the pawns of the EU. We would have wasted years and millions just to say we have changed our minds. It will put us in an arguable worse situation that even a hard Brexit and seriously damages the credibility of the country.

There is no perfect answer - my instinct is we lie in the bed we have made and Brexit. If a deal can be cobbled together, great. If not we hard Brexit and sort the mess out after.

pyramidbutterflyfish · 16/12/2018 00:21

Yes yes yes. I want to remain, but equally if we leave, I want to know the country voted knowing the actual alternatives. So a second referendum is win-win.

May needs to hold the parliamentary vote next week. If the deal is approved, the vote should be remain vs her deal. If it’s not approved, the vote should be remain vs a no deal exit.

Singletomingle · 16/12/2018 00:22

Another vote sets a massive precedent. The whole problem stems from politicians having no plan for no deal which should have been the priority.

CoughLaughFart · 16/12/2018 00:26

There is no perfect answer - my instinct is we lie in the bed we have made and Brexit. If a deal can be cobbled together, great. If not we hard Brexit and sort the mess out after.

What does that even mean?

There is concrete, legal proof that the Leave campaign circumvented the rules and overspent. That alone is enough to declare the original referendum void. If you want more evidence, look at the reality of Brexit two and a half years on. Politicians can bang on all they like about ‘the Brexit people voted for’, but that Brexit - one where we get to cherry-pick all the best things about membership but simply ditch those we don’t - doesn’t exist.

Wingedharpy · 16/12/2018 00:26

Yes, definitely another vote.
It's now become more apparent what leaving will actually entail, rather than the fantasies which were pedalled prior to the last vote.
The best analogy I heard was someone saying it was similar to buying a house that you have viewed and fallen in love with.
You put in an offer and it's accepted, then you get the surveyors report outlining all the horrors that are wrong with the house.
You just wouldn't say "well, I said I'd buy it so we have to carry on and proceed with the purchase".
You re-consider and make your decision based on the facts you now know rather than what you thought you knew.
A second vote would be a more informed vote IMHO.

Cubrrt · 16/12/2018 00:35

Yes, at the time of the last referendum the Leave campaign was a hodge-podge of different ideas, some saying we'd stay in the single market, others more akin to a hard Brexit. We had no real idea what the effect on our economy would be.

Now, it looks like we'll either approve TM's soft Brexit or leave without a deal at all. We have forecasts based on both models. Once we know if TM's deal passes through parliament or not, we'll know exactly what Brexit will look like.

The hard Brexit supporters see the soft brexit as a betrayal, the soft Brexit supporters see no deal as a potential disaster.

If the deal passes parliament, there should be a referendum on the deal vs remain. If the deal can't pass parliament, it should be no deal vs remain.

The first referendum was incredibly premature because of the assumption Remain will win. This is a pivotal moment in our history and I don't see how one more vote, with a better-informed electorate, undermines democracy in any way.

Particularly when the Leave campaign made clear that, if they'd lost the last referendum, they'd seek another.

Augusta2012 · 16/12/2018 00:42

No. It seems abundantly obvious that the EU has offered us a crap deal to force us back in.

I don’t know what it’s like in London, but people in the north are starting to get extremely angry. We’ve spent the last year being insulted by remainers, called too stupid to vote and “gammon” and told we didn’t understand what we were voting for. The only groups that voted in majority for remain was the wealthiest AB groups. Remain votes were much higher in the South. People in those groups really don’t seem to be able to compute that working class people and northerners feel very, very little benefit from the EU but massive draw backs. There really is a feeling that the wealthiest in this country have colluded with the EU to get their own way and make sure the working classes are denied a voice or influence.

I honestly think if there was another referendum and remain won, it wouldn’t be seen as the country changing its mind and a fair result. I think it would be regarded as an outcome which only happened because the elite and the EU had connived together to manipulate the process to force the situation.

I think it would probably lead to widespread civil unrest.

We would be best off telling the EU that we intended to go for no deal. We’d have an extremely strong hand then because the EU would be fucked if we withdrew. France is expected to make up most of the shortfall financially that UK withdrawal with no deal would create. Macron is under huge pressure in France at the moment to give more to ordinary people. The EU have already told him that it’s unlikely he can afford to fund what he is promising and that he’s being closely watched (although interestingly the EU made no comment when Macron slashed taxes for the rich). Combined with the hit the French economy would take in the event of no deal, particularly in the north, France and Macron would be in serious trouble. It would make the recent unrest look like a school girls’ tea party.

Ireland is also facing real economic problems at the moment and homelessness and repossessions are the main story. There is considerable anger at the heavy handed tactics being employed by police to carry out evictions, especially as Varadker has appointed a former head of the RUC to head the police - that has created absolute fury. Ireland is also a potential tinderbox. The Greeks obviously have a lot of economic problems and Spain’s economy is very fragile, their tourism would be hit and they would be asking questions of the EU. Populism and anti EU sentiment are heavily influential in Poland, Hungary and Austria. Plus the in the US the current administration is anti EU and pro UK.

If we were genuinely prepared to threaten it, our position would be hugely strong and the EU would pretty soon come back with a better deal. But the remain faction in the UK is working as hard as it can to make sure that no deal cannot be deployed effectively as a bargaining chip because they do not want a better deal offered, they want us to be forced to remain because we only have an awful deal on offer. The calls for a second referendum are very much a part of that.

Remain, of course, have made it abundantly clear that they view most of the working classes as too stupid to understand much. I think they think that means they don’t think they’ll see through what is happening. But I really think they do and there’s going to be trouble. I really think Remain are going to regret the abuse and vitriol which has emanating from their side over the last few years. It seems to have fomented considerable hatred towards them which may well blow back at them.

MardyBra · 16/12/2018 00:44

Of course.

VOTE LEAVE LIED AND BROKE THE LAW

I REPEAT

VOTE LEAVE LIED AND BROKE THE LAW
VOTE LEAVE LIED AND BROKE THE LAW
VOTE LEAVE LIED AND BROKE THE LAW
VOTE LEAVE LIED AND BROKE THE LAW
VOTE LEAVE LIED AND BROKE THE LAW
VOTE LEAVE LIED AND BROKE THE LAW

#bollockstobrexit #peoplesvote

MardyBra · 16/12/2018 00:49

@Augusta2012
No. It seems abundantly obvious that the EU has offered us a crap deal to force us back in.

The Eu owes us nothing. If we are leaving the union we can no longer enjoy the benefits of membership.