to wonder if a second referendum is a good idea?

[brizzledrizzle]

The Sunday Times are running a headline that the PM's team are planning one. Part of me thinks it's a good idea, part of me thinks that the country has already voted and can't afford another referendum.

No, I think it’s a valid question to ask given the publicity the EU army idea has garnered.

Hohoho. The European Army. To stop war on the continent? 😂😂😂

You really would have to be some class of useful idiot to believe the EU wants an army to prevent war. WWI and II didn’t happen because of a lack of armies.

And an EU army taking on the US or Russia? Europe could muster up about 200,000 troops and 30 neckwear warheads on a good day. The US has over 1.25 million active troops, another million reservists and 4,500 nuclear warheads. Russia has a million active troops, two million reservists and 3,800 nuclear warheads.

You’d have to be a complete simpleton to believe that an EU army would be intended to take on the US or Russia. It’s only conceivable purpose is to oppress dissent in member states. It would take a stunning level of credulousness not to believe that.

Europe could muster up about 200,000 troops

Not sure where you are getting your figures from, as France alone has over 200,000 active military.

"The US has over 1.25 million active troops, "

And couldn't defeat the rag tag Iraqis.

Or the Veitcong.

Or the Afghans.

The French has about 100,000 active soldiers.

The 200,000 figure is only reached because France includes the Gendarmerie in it’s armed forces numbers when other states don’t include the police. That’s the biggest army on the continent. 100,000 people. And you reckon they could take on millions?

Are you on glue?

I didn’t say 200,000 troops though - I said military personnel.

Add together troops, Air Force, navy and support personnel you get around 208,000 personnel.

So no, not on glue, but certainly capable of accuracy.

And couldn't defeat the rag tag Iraqis.

Or the Vietcong

Or the Afghan

Yes, you seem to be confusing state endorsed armies subject to international law with guerillas and militia.

The supposed purpose of the EU army would be to stop us from being invaded. Something that Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq’s forces couldn’t prevent.

Failing to subdue a population is a very different kettle of fish to an invasion.

And there is no way an EU army could prevent itself being invaded.

I think some kind of EU army is inevitable when Russia is rattling sabres in the East again and Trump has already declared his disgust at EU member states not contributing enough to their own protection.

I am concerned at the military build-up this will result in, but, self defence is a necessity.

"Yes, you seem to be confusing state endorsed armies subject to international law with guerillas and militia."

Yet the most expensive military in the world couldn't defeat them.

Who is going to invade Europe? Russia?

Russia is certainly threatening on the Eastern frontiers, yes. Wasn't there something about a grab in Ukraine recently?

It would help if British media would report on international developments in more detail rather than which celebrity of the moment is in bed with whom and whose butt is the biggest. And if the British people would read them.

Russia may be just sabre rattling, as it did in Syria: but it will push for opportunity where it sees weakness. Of course a self-defence force is necessary.

Add together troops, Air Force, navy and support personnel you get around 208,000 personnel.

So no, not on glue, but certainly capable of accuracy.

If you throw in the gendarmerie and the fire brigade and every single bean counter and secretary (which are included in those numbers) the they can just about scrape up somewhere approaching 189,000.

When you limit it to active fighting personnel, it’s closer to 100,000.

Of course a self-defence force is necessary

So what’s wrong with the French or German or Spanish Army? All members of NATO and all already committed to the defence of Europe?

Why do we need an army under the command of the EU?

I’ll tell you why. Because armies tend to get a bit cross if they’re asked to turn on their own people. So those armies are useless for the EUs purpose.

EU army, Turkey joining the EU, Hoover's, sovereignty.....this thread is making me so angry and sad. Two years have passed and yet it seems we have learnt nothing. If anything, people seem to care even less that they are spouting utter tripe to prove their "point". If I hear sovereignty one more time I will scream. We are GIVING UP our power, our say as a leading EU country and what for??? So that we can be worse off, be more insulated and racist and tear each other apart.

Did the Iron Curtain fall so very long ago, or did I just imagine all those eastern and Balkan states being under Russian dominance? Some of you people must have very short memories indeed not to think Russia might have one or two interests in Eastern Europe, against the will of those same Eastern Europeans. And why should it stop in Eastern Europe? I have never really understood the antipathy in Britain to an EU defence force. Yes we have NATO: but NATO is bankrolled by America, and American withdrawal is a real possibility.

Russia aren't going to invade the west.

Which is why they are involved in cyber attacks and distabling policies.

Medieval history is more my thing: and Russia has always been involved in eastern Europe. Look up the fate of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, once one of the biggest states in Europe. I bet hardly anyone on this thread has heard of it. Torn apart between Russia and the Prussians.

"All members of NATO"

Has it missed your attention about what is happening with NATO?

If you throw in the gendarmerie and the fire brigade and every single bean counter and secretary (which are included in those numbers) the they can just about scrape up somewhere approaching 189,000.

Nope.

Army = 114,000
Navy = 35,000
Air force = 40,000

Thats 189,00 excluding support services of 14,000 and Gendarmerie of 2500.

Turkey may well join the EU in the future.
What makes you think that could never happen?

Which is why they are involved in cyber attacks and distabling policies. Including trolling British social media over the Brexit issue, yes. They must be howling with glee.

"Turkey may well join the EU in the future.
What makes you think that could never happen?"

Because they have a whole raft of conditions to meet and haven't managed it in nearly 40 years.

I'd prefer to see Turkey form a new alliance with other middle East powers personally. That area needs the stability of its own alliances once again, and I believe, perhaps wrongly, that a diversity of powers, a larger number of small ones, helps everyone.

Angela Merkel has said that Turkey will never join the EU: www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-eu-membership-germany-warning-erdogan-president-a7911456.html

I think Turkey might also be getting a bit fed up with westerners' attitude to them and might have declared that they didn't want to know us anyway.

Thats 189,00 excluding support services of 14,000 and Gendarmerie of 2500.

And I should have included the 60,000 civilian personnel too.

Love the cognitive dissonance of leavers.

"Sovereignty and control".

But all key supporters of NATO, within which we pool sovereignty.