to wonder if a second referendum is a good idea?

[brizzledrizzle]

The Sunday Times are running a headline that the PM's team are planning one. Part of me thinks it's a good idea, part of me thinks that the country has already voted and can't afford another referendum.

A second (or third) referendum will not stop the debate.

Brexit or no Brexit this issue will not go away for decades.

Brexit or no Brexit there will be civil and social unrest next summer.

The vote for Brexit opened a can of worms that will not disappear. It has shown us the unpleasant, self serving side of this country - on all sides.

Brexit or no Brexit there will be civil and social unrest next summer.

I agree, but we get what we vote for and this completely predictable mess was what Leavers voted for.

Ah yes, another one of these threads, filled with leave-at-all costs Brexit simpletons, and the well-meaning remainers whom I am starting to think are even more simple because they actually think that, at some point, Brexiters will suddenly develop the mental capacity and/or the willingness to understand what their idiocy will do to this country.

In a years' time they'll be unemployed, underwater on their mortgages, trying to scrape together pennies for what scraps will be available in the supermarket aisles, and they'll STILL refuse to admit they were wrong.

What do we do then Mallorie give up?

I am really fearful for the country. The historical parallels are alarming, the extremes want Brexit because of the social unrest it will cause.

When you see a train heading towards someone you love do you just walk away?

Here here Mousse

Also there’s not really much point comparing this specific referendum to anything else really. The aftermath is quite unprecedented.

@recently: yes, politicians lie every single election. It really is a wonder that their manifestos aren't signed by The Brothers Grimm, It will be chaos if every election from local elections up to a referendum have to be re-taken bon that basis!

@Mallorie. Calling people who want to leave 'Simpletons' is exactly the sort of thing that the far right are making hay on. They climb on the chair and shout to their already marginalised audience,

'They think you're all simpletons, uneducated, too thick to have the vote!' They shout it loud and continuously and it is working. It can't be denied these things have been said and it does their cause a lot of good.

If some vocal remainers weren't saying these thing, the very far right would have to make them up in order to further their cause. As it is, they can say it without shame as it is, alas, all too true,

God knows Moussemouse, I wish I did. I'm saving every penny, trying to stockpile medicine for my chronic condition, and writing to my MP. All I DO know is that Brexiters didn't reason themselves into their idiotic, ill-informed stances, and they won't be reasoned out of them. All we can do is try to get past them, somehow.

"If some vocal remainers weren't saying these thing, the very far right would have to make them up in order to further their cause. As it is, they can say it without shame as it is, alas, all too true,"
Delicate diddums.

@bellinisurge.

That is a very silly remark and one, no doubt, that could be applied to many of those who feel the vote didn't go their way.

None theless, apart from the intellectually challenged flavour of your comment, the point I make is a serious one and one that thinking people are concerned about.

Saying 'delicate diddums' is not helpful to the debate about what happens next at possible consequences. In fact, it rather shows your arse, which is ok as I imagine that is where your brains as kept.

@aconcertpianist - I don't think they're too thick to have a vote, I think this should have never come to a vote because if you ask the public stupid questions, you get stupid answers. I'm sure if we had a referendum for the question 'Should all tax be abolished - y/n' that the answer would probably be yes, because far too many people are some combination of stupid, selfish, and short-sighted.

The only slightly positive outcome I see is somehow cancelling this whole mess, through a 2nd referendum or just withdrawing article 50 until people come to their senses, because I think that the vast majority of Brexiters are actually too lazy to take to the streets. They'll just moan and repeat dog-whistle racist Daily Mail headlines to each other on FB.

aconcertpianist calling people simpletons doesn't help...

But the quality of arguments given to support Brexit are very thin to say the least. The naive belief that we can 'get brexit over with' is staggering.

We will be discussing Brexit for decades.

If there were good reasons for Brexit I wouldn't like it, I would campaign against it but I wouldn't be as despairing.

Brexit is, in my opinion, dangerous for the U.K..We are being pushed into the arms of the extremes. It is more than a simple stay/go vote. When people say "let's just get on with it" the naivety and the inability to assess risk does make me think they might be simple.

I agree but Leave Voters are being called this and a very frightening set of people are making capital out of it. I don't think it is something to be ignored.

We should think before we speak or adopt a patronising tone for the good of everyone.

a very frightening set of people are making capital out of it

And an equally frightening set of people are nudging the UK towards No Deal because they plan to make a great deal of capital out of it, in very real terms.

This is a gift for extremists (left and right) and populists.

As posters say there are some very frightening people waiting in the wings. We will not get out of this without some degree of social unrest.

I am not making decisions on who to vote for, and what to hope for, based on what is best. I am now looking for the solution that will do the least damage.

And while this is happening people "just want it done".

@Buteo. Yes, but does that mean that we should hand the Very Far Right content for their speeches.

Apart from the fact that it is insulting, I don't think we should. I do believe there is a storm coming either way but when people's real concerns are met with a Marie Antoinette ''diddums' type remark, it makes me very worried.

Marie Antoinette's remark about bread and cake was attributed to her because it would whip people up to call for blood and yet, in this scenario remarks to whip people up don't have to be imagined-they are there for all to hear and see.

I think it is foolish but I'm not going to carry on singing the same tune to people who really don't think that the consequences of another vote may well be violent and that the people who may then grab power think Trump is a liberal!

I do actually think it’s really damaging to the whole scenario to accuse leave voters of being ignorant and racist.

Of course pick people up on it if in a debate on the subject they make this POV evident, but all it does is create more bad blood amongst the population and, as demonstrated by a thread made on here just the other day (the lady who said along the lines of she hates what’s happened to Brexit but she can’t vote against it because she doesn’t want to give in the the insult throwing remainers).

It doesn’t help, it only hinders debate about actual Brexit as it keeps all focus on the people voting rather than the thing voted for.

But, but, but some Brexit voters do express extremely racist views. The rise in racists crimes is because of Brexit.

Not all Brexit voters are racist but all racists voted Brexit.

If people choose to get on the bus with racists how can you point this out without offending them?

No no I agree, but I did say

Of course pick people up on it if in a debate on the subject they make this POV evident

I understand and have been critical of leave voters. All I’m saying is it doesn’t help when looking at the bigger picture to breeze along talking about “the ignorant, racist 50% of the population”

however accurate that may be

Joking!

If they do, I will never vote again.

aconcertpianist I tend to keep my views on Leaver's attitudes to immigration to myself - I wouldn't want to tar all Leavers with the same brush as my DM's reasons for voting leave for instance.

However, I am concerned that the extreme Brexiteers are bigging up leaving on No Deal (and rubbishing any other points of view as "Project Fear") not just because it fits with their idealogy but because they and their cronies stand to make a lot of money.

And as for the far right racists - they've already been given free reign to loudly voice their "send them all home" sentiments. It's too late to put them back in their box.

@greenpop21 Is that a promise?

Actually,@Moussemouse I know quite a few people whom I would describe as terribly racist who voted to remain.

In many cases, this was because of second homes in Europe or because they wanted DC to have work experience in Europe.

So no, in my experience and naturally-like everyone else I am relying on anecdote-it is untrue to say that "All racists voted Brexit." Some Racists voted Remain,

However, many non-racists who voted to leave, did so because they feel there is a class of patronising bastards-to pinch Quentin Letts' phrase- who are starting to feel that their vote is worth nothing if it doesn't give those patronising bastards the answer they want.

This feeling is being exploited and that way, danger lies.

Anyway, I've said my bit and, apart from repeating it in one form or another, I haven't really got anything else to this interesting thread. A pity about the few who just make silly 'diddums' remarks but I guess we will have them with us always!

Mallorie why the nastiness?

@greenpop21 I feel no compulsion to be a sweetie pie with anyone who would throw away my future and the future of millions of people through their own stubborn, wilful ignorance. Please don't ever, ever, ever vote again. That's best for everyone, including yourself.

*greenpop21 your argument was not particularly well reasoned.

People's voices have not been listened to, this is 100% right. Due in large part to our electoral system. However, when you explain this people glaze over - or perhaps that's just me?

Brexit seemed like a nice simple response to a complex issue. However, it is going to make things immeasurable worse but you can't express this as you are told it is 'project fear'.

How can you listen and respond when people talk in sound bites and slogans.