to wonder if a second referendum is a good idea?

[brizzledrizzle]

The Sunday Times are running a headline that the PM's team are planning one. Part of me thinks it's a good idea, part of me thinks that the country has already voted and can't afford another referendum.

@Childrenofthe sun

of course not but many will feel genuinely aggrieved-that is reasonable- and the far right will flame it-that is unreasonable and dangerous.

It has already started with the those leading rubbing their hands with delight

The vote has been cast and for the sake of democracy, we have to go ahead with it. Other countries will follow within years.

Theresa May pushes forward £2 billion no deal Brexit preparations...

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/17/theresa-may-pushes-forward-2bn-no-deal-brexit-preparations

The vote has been cast and for the sake of democracy, we have to go ahead with it. Other countries will follow within years.

Rubbish.

Any referendum can be either democratic or irreversible, but not both.

Just as no parliament can bind a successor, it follows that no electorate can do either.

The 2016 referendum does not and cannot bind the UK absolutely.

Any democracy can change its mind.

I’m really confused about Russia saying that they’re happy to go without holidays if that’s what leaving the EU requires. Surely the vast majority are the complete opposite and rightly so?

I just can’t believe that people are willing to hugely sacrifice their day to day life for the sake of leaving the EU. And what about the millions of people in this country who already don’t have holidays? Who already struggle to afford the cost of living which is rising much faster than wages?

That’s the crux of it isn’t it. People who don’t care what havoc Brexit wreaks are people like those in power - those who are comfortable enough to not care that millions of people would struggle. It’s not hysteria or “project fear” to say that poverty and food bank use is already increasing, the last thing we need is for even more people, children, families, struggling to get by. Even if it’s “just” that the food prices go up, this will really hit people.

But who cares right as long as the foreigners can’t come in any more

Really don't think this fiasco can be dragged on for much longer.
The general mood of people is they are sick of it...it needs to be finished one way or another.

No that is not what I said. I said in the worst case scenario I would have to deal with the consequences.

As someone said upthread no point in crying over spilt milk.
What's done is done. We have to find pragmatic solutions surely. Screaming and shouting isn't going to help.
Neither are sarcastic personal attacks on here.

You may not understand my view but respect I'm entitled to one and it does not have to match yours.

But that’s what doesn’t make sense to me, objectively or subjectively.

There is a point crying over the milk because we could do something about it. We shouldn’t be putting anything above the welfare of the population and especially the most vulnerable people.

I think that’s what’s so frustrating, it’s not that I don’t understand people want to leave. It’s not that I don’t respect that people want to leave and that there are valid reasons for wanting to.

I’m just saying that over the last 2 years it has become clearer and clearer that we have had a very weak negotiation and that there is a huge chance that we are not going to be better off economically, and that there are a lot of drawbacks to Brexit - some that weren’t thought of and some that couldn’t possibly have been thought of by the general public.

It’s just distressing to see the government pressing on regardless with no true reassurance and actually no real positive public message - it’s a constant criticism of people who want to reconsider instead of any reassurance that it won’t be as bad is many of us think.

And I’m genuinely surprised that so many people are still behind them after all this.

It's a totally impossible situation and I just can't see any way to break the deadlock, other than crash out with no deal.

Well as my username may suggest my family are those foreigners.

So I can assure you my vote was not based on immigration. Stop your assumptions right there SilverDoe

What's done is done. We have to find pragmatic solutions surely. Screaming and shouting isn't going to help.
Except it's not done and a pragmatic solution would be to abandon the whole idea. No Deal would not be a solution.

it needs to be finished one way or another

But it won't be finished. Even if TM's deal is voted through, that's not actually a deal, it's just for the transion period. If we have 'no deal' chaos do you think the people are just going to suck it up and not protest? If we have Norway+ or even no Brexit do you think the far right aren't going to be out on the streets attacking anybody who looks a little bit foreign? And what about the fragile peace in NI and Scotland being taken out of the EU against their will after being promised they could only stay in the EU if they voted to remain part of the UK?

This is going to go on for years and years. Well done Leave voters bring this mess on your country, you are to blame for this and we have no good options thanks to you. God I wish Remain had won, we'd have none of this shit storm, and the racist far right would be back in their box.

Get over yourself Russia that comment wasn’t aimed at you specifically, I don’t believe for a second that anyway near 0% of people voted leave mainly or even solely because of immigration.

The shit you have come out with and the words you have used to describe remainers on this thread leave you without any of my sympathy if I have offended you, I promise you that.

Tell me what words I've used? Think I mentioned hysterical...nothing more.

I'm in two minds.

I buy into the 'trade union' type argument that the people should vote again now we know what the deal looks like. I do not buy we could get another radically different deal if someone else was negotiating on our side. Mays deal is the deal.

However, I'm unsure parliament would get a useful answer from a second vote though, especially if the leave vote was split across two options.

I also don't think the majority of people understand the complexities of Brexit. I certainly don't and we should never have had a referendum in the first place.

And people banging around comments like 'sod it, let's go for a no deal Brexit!' don't understand the implications. It would be an economic disaster! Lots of people will lose their jobs and there are so many already on the breadline.

ritz I agree as much as I would like a referendum it does seem difficult because what would the options be.

Maybe to simplify it and make it fairer they could just base the referendum on the fact that lots of new information has come out and we just have another vote for leave vs remain, with leave voters voting for the continuation of the process whatever the outcome? I don’t know if that is fairer or much unfairer though, it’s hard to think through.

If it was a good idea to leave the EU in 2016, presumably the wisdom of British voters will agree that it is so in 2019 as well if it really was such a good idea. I do not understand the argument that voting again on such a momentous step for Britain now that we know so much more about the complexities of that step would be in any way undemocratic. And surely the Norway option is a terrible idea - continue to pay loads of money without a seat at the decision-making tables?

A referendum is only a good idea if all the facts are on the table. This means no lies, no propaganda, no project fear, no promises of easy trade deals and unicorns just some honest facts for once.

A referendum should be overseen by an independent body that can regulate, identify false claims and ask for clarification & evidence to back any claims or to bring to the attention of the public any misinformation that is likley to influence how they vote.

And the WA is only the start of negotiations - trying to negotiate a trade deal with the EU and to replace all of the existing trade deals we have through the EU is going to take many, many years.

No Deal shouldn't be an option. May's deal fulfills what was promised on the ballot paper. Don't like it? Then perhaps you shouldn't have voted for such a nebulous idea in the first place.

Backintime exactly, maybe now there has been analysis on May’s deal this would be a good source of information to publish digestible facts to illustrate what the deal means, and we can have statistics published about the costs and benefits the EU offers usz

If we have a secondary referendum, so be it.

Come the GE, I will look forward to the second GE straight afterwards if the result is the wrong one.

Question is, how do you know the result is the wrong one?

You could apply that to any future decision really I.e. keep voting until the right result is achieved or not bother voting for something as you know it may be overturned.

The only way to stop things like this happening in the future is not to allow people to vote on anything.

Now that would be an interesting argument / discussion 😳

@EngTech have you read the thread?

All the points you make have been addressed several times.

I know that for many who voted ;leave', immigration was a significant factor. That does not make their vote any less valid.

It's my opinion that if people hadn't felt that they were being shouted down each time they questioned it-who can forget the patronising remarks of Mary Beard on Question Time-the Leave side would have lost.

Many leavers feel that there is a patronising bastard class that they were giving a kick in the balls to-a chance for them to roar-to be heard.

If the vote is re-taken and a different result (maybe even if the vote is just re-taken) it will be easy to whip some Leave voters up into a frenzy of how their country will be taken over, no-one listens to them-their vote is worth nothing.

It will be easy for the Far Right to make the most of it-in many pubs and clubs they are already doing so, swivel eyed with excitement and a re-vote will be exactly the vehicle they need to push forward.

The vote has been taken and really, that now is it. We have to protect democracy-everyone has to believe that the ballot box is all they need to be heard. We can only make a decision on the facts that are available at the time. Both sides lied...well, that's nothing new is it?

Come the GE, I will look forward to the second GE straight afterwards if the result is the wrong one.

Well it's not like May has form for calling unnecessary snap elections, is it?

Both sides lied...well, that's nothing new is it?
Really?