to wonder if a second referendum is a good idea?

[brizzledrizzle]

The Sunday Times are running a headline that the PM's team are planning one. Part of me thinks it's a good idea, part of me thinks that the country has already voted and can't afford another referendum.

I think its a carrot and stick approach Jobs like nursing for eg need to have a higher public perception of status amongst school leavers

Sucessive govts have just taken to the easy option of cheaper foreign labour rather than spending money on training , wage increase and better conditions

It will take decades to turn this around and I would be happy to pay more in tax to support this as long as I could see some of the waste stopped

@surferjet , I'm saying any deal is better than No Deal. Pretty sure I've moved position. But if you haven't that suggests you are bored thinking about it and have gone off to play somewhere else.
Oo ...squirrel 🐿

"Sucessive govts have just taken to the easy option of cheaper foreign labour rather than spending money on training , wage increase and better conditions"

This isn't really true, EU nationals make up about 6% of the workforce.

Yeah, you’ve got me. I am a bit bored of talking about brexit now, 2.5 years on and the same conversations? anyone would get bored.
Except some remainers of course - who are still on every single brexit thread giving it their all.

I dont think that training has stopped for any professional career or trade , but it is my observation that a lot of school leavers do not consider these trades or professions as a desired career that they can do well

Well clearly you know nothing about these industries. They are still the destination of choice for most working class males, which is part of the reason they are underrepresented at universities.

You can train to a basic level with state support. But to go up and get where the money is, you need extra tickets which cost a couple of grand. At the turn of century employers used to put people through these. That rarely happens now because fully trained people who will accept low wages are freely available from Europe. And people in low wages jobs struggle to self fund and there are no loans available unlike uni.

You might remember that pre Poland joining plumbers could command huge wages and many people crowed about the joys of the cheap Polish plumber. But it wasn’t just overpaid plumbers whose wages fell, it was the entire industry, many of whom were on fairly low wages anyway. And they fell considerably.

I find it amazing so many remainers claim to be left wing. They’re frequently the sort of people who support unions that go out on strike if they think their pay rises aren’t big enough. Yet they actively celebrate the wages of an entire industry being pummelled and berate the people it has happened to for caring. The hypocrisy is astounding.

"I find it amazing so many remainers claim to be left wing"
Not me darling.

Corbyn is a Leave supporter so you need to undo your tired Left/Right Rich/Poor Remain/Leave fantasies. If only it were that simple.

Augustta you are talking crap.

We have undertrained our own people for decades and had skills gaps in the 1980s in lots of trades.

Funny that none of the evidence on the impact of immigration on wages agrees with you eh?

Plumbers still earn a lot of money!

A time limit for the backstop. That’s the problem.

Then it’s not a backstop then, is it? Maybe if David Davis hadn’t immediately and publicly reneged on agreements he made with the EU then the EU would be less sceptical of the UK’s sincerity.

Because a time unlimited backstop completely removes the incentive for the EU to agree to an electronic border. Why on earth would they set the UK free when they could keep us trapped and subordinate to them forever.

And where is the technology for this electronic border? Can you perform phytosanitary checks electronically?

Which is exactly why May wants the EU to commit to removing the backstop.

The backstop will come into play at the end of 2022 if there is no trade deal agreed between the UK and the EU. Needing a backstop at all demonstrates that negotiating a trade deal with the EU will not be “the easiest thing in human history” after all. Quelle surprise.

Fucking hell. Just when you think remainers can’t come out with anything more oppressive and dictatorial they pull a rabbit like this out of the hat.

Suggesting that people might think about electing MEPs that work in the UKs interests rather than turning up to collect expenses, play with little flags and not attend committee meetings or bother to vote (Farage is ranked 744th of 746 MEPs, Hannan isn’t much better either at 735th) is not anti democratic.

This isn't really true, EU nationals make up about 6% of the workforce.

But they are heavily concentrated in certain types of jobs and these are generally jobs the working classes do. If you’re a university lecturer it’s unlikely that multiple Eastern European’s will be offering to do your job on the cheap. But if you’re a brickie or a carer, there almost certainly will be.

I think its a carrot and stick approach Jobs like nursing for eg need to have a higher public perception of status amongst school leavers

Until you increase the number of training places, the public perception is irrelevant. Training places are mostly over-subscribed anyway in lots of places. My nephew couldn't get on any local teacher training courses despite meeting the entry requirements - told they were oversubscribed. Same with my niece who wanted to train to be a nurse - again, met the entry requirements. It's well known that medical schools for trainee doctors are grossly oversubscribed. It's not a shortage of people wanting to enter these professions, it's a shortage of available training places in some parts of the country.

Plumbers still earn a lot of money!

Again, depends on the area. In the richer more heavily populated areas such as London and South East, then yes, there's such a high demand that there is enough work for both locals and immigrant plumbers to charge premium prices.

In Northern run down towns and run down seaside resorts in the regions, things are very different. "Home grown" plumbers can't charge silly money when their customers are unemployed, disabled or poor OAPs - there are relatively few "affluent" workers as average wages are usually very low in such areas. Yet your stereotypical Polish plumbers are in those areas and due to their competition are driving down charges and taking the work of the "locals".

I find it amazing so many remainers claim to be left wing. They’re frequently the sort of people who support unions that go out on strike if they think their pay rises aren’t big enough. Yet they actively celebrate the wages of an entire industry being pummelled and berate the people it has happened to for caring. The hypocrisy is astounding.

Have to agree with all that. It's what I've been thinking too! Lefties are just as selfish as the Right!

"I don't think that training has stopped for any professional career or trade , but it is my observation that a lot of school leavers do not consider these trades or professions as a desired career that they can do well and instead are led into university where they feel the career streets will be paved with gold
I think its about changing this perception to our school leavers "

I understand the German model is for 14 year olds to choose between an academic path, or a not-so-academic path at schools financed by industry that allows them an apprenticeship alongside their education.

So it's achievable within the EU.

"But they are heavily concentrated in certain types of jobs and these are generally jobs the working classes do. "

They really aren't.

They also tend to be concentrated in areas that voted remain.

"In Northern run down towns and run down seaside resorts in the regions, things are very different."

You are right, they tend to have extremely few EU immigrants living in them.

Suggesting that people might think about electing MEPs that work in the UKs interests rather than turning up to collect expenses, play with little flags and not attend committee meetings or bother to vote (Farage is ranked 744th of 746 MEPs, Hannan isn’t much better either at 735th) is not anti democratic.

But that poster wasn’t suggesting that. They said that they though wanted a situation where the British weren’t allowed to vote at all on laws they are subject to.

I’m not sure why it would come as a great surprise that an anti EU MP wasn’t an enthusiastic participant in the EU parliament.

And it doesn’t matter a jot what sort of flowery language you dress it up in. You’re basically you cannot handle dissent from your own view and refuse to believe that anybody could possibly make an informed choice something that is best for you isn’t best for them. That’s completely how totalitarians and oppressors justify themselves.

David Davis didn’t renege on a deal. He pointed out, truthfully, that the agreement made was not legally binding. The EU have been entirely inflexible in negotiations and reneged on several agreements, so I don’t see why any interim agreement should bind the UK when it doesn’t bind them.

It doesn’t matter that the backstop will only come into play in 2022 if no deal is agreed. It removes the incentive for the EU to reach a deal and there is no guarantee they will. And we can never leave it without their permission. It would be handing fundamental questions about how we are governed out of the hands of our own parliament and electorate to a foreign power who is currently openly hostile to the UK. Only a complete nutter could think that was a good idea.

I understand the German model is for 14 year olds to choose between an academic path, or a not-so-academic path at schools financed by industry that allows them an apprenticeship alongside their education.

So it's achievable within the EU.

What???? What 14 year olds do you know that are shipping off to Germany to learn to be plumbers. Ridiculous statement.
Kids stay at school here till 16/18 and must do apprenticeships get a job or collage.
Kids DO not leave at 14 since the 60’s

They really aren't.

Bullshit. Are you trying to claim that industries like construction and care aren’t heavily populated by EU migrants? Then you’re an outright liar.

" 7 % of workers in the construction industry in the UK are EU27 nationals and 3% are non-EU – compared with all other industries in the UK (excluding construction) – 6% EU27 nationals and 4% non-EU nationals."

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/migrantlabourforcewithintheconstructionindustry/2018-06-19

So yes you were talking bullshit.

Oh, are you using those figures that say only 7% of the UK construction industry is from the EU? But the only count employees which is almost exclusively senior management in the UK? They don’t count the self employed who are the majority of the industry. They are worthless figures.

Which agreements have the EU renged on?

They have been entirely flexible, but maintained the point that the UK cannot have a deal which is better than EU membership.

No they don't just count senior management.

You can present nothing to back up your own "facts".

What???? What 14 year olds do you know that are shipping off to Germany to learn to be plumbers. Ridiculous statement.
Kids stay at school here till 16/18 and must do apprenticeships get a job or collage.
Kids DO not leave at 14 since the 60’s

I think the point being made was that Germany manages to train their own (they don’t leave school at 14, they divert on to the apprenticeship path at that age) population to become skilled tradespeople, without having to rely on labour from elsewhere. And that they manage to do this despite being an EU country.

David Davis didn’t renege on a deal. He pointed out, truthfully, that the agreement made was not legally binding.

Yes, he did renege on the December 2017 politically binding agreement - he dismissed it as “a statement of intent” only.

Leavers are in no position to shout “but it was only politically binding and not legally binding”.

The EU have been entirely inflexible in negotiations

The EU has been constrained by May’s red lines and her determination to cherry pick rather than accept the offered Canada style FTA.

It removes the incentive for the EU to reach a deal and there is no guarantee they will.

Why would the EU want to keep the UK in the backstop when it offers preferential access to the SM, enjoying tariff-free access and no rules of origin whilst undercutting EU business standards?

It really is amazing. Remainers will claim that European workers are vital to our economy and we can’t do without them and that if they go wages will become so high crops will rot in the fields because it will be too expensive to harvest when it suits them.

Then in the next breath, they’ll claim EU migrants are an insignificant part of the workforce who have no impact on wages.