To blame Have I Got News For You for the mess we’re currently in?

[BertrandRussell]

None of this would have happened if Johnston, Farage and Rees-Mogg hadn’t been invited on and been allowed to present themselves as “good sports”.

Brexit isn’t something terribly close to my heart even though it’s a big topic in Ireland obviously, to me it’s a sign of the times; ordinary people want to punish the elites, whether through Brexit or Trump, and damn the consequences!

Demographic change has been used as a weapon in certain circumstances; I used to live in China and Tibet and now Xinjiang is in the grip of policies that aim to supplant locals with ethnic Chinese. You can imagine how they feel about it. They are losing their culture .... they lost their country centuries ago.

This isn’t what is happening in the EU, but that feeling of losing control of your country can be a very scary experience, and they are lashing out through the ballet box..

My DH works in the MENA and I am sorry, but it’s an extremely woman-unfriendly society. Christianity was like that too for much of its history and we only recently neutered it, but many African countries retain that virulently hateful brand of Christianity that is no longer welcome in the West.

We are not the same. Humanity is diverse; difference matters. To recognize that aspect of humanity is not hate. I love the diversity of the world, but you must be mindful about how new arrivals will influence your country. It won’t always be a positive.

The correct answer is Muslims who are twice as likely as the general population to hold anti-Semitic views.

I wonder what the results about Islamophobia in the Jewish community would be. Pretty similar I bet.

The thing is, a lot of Muslims don't see themselves as British because people like ElonMask want to continually remind them that they're different, their religion is different, their mother tongue is different. So if a minority of Muslims don't see themselves as British, I think when asked 'Do you see Jewish people as British?', they may answer 'no' because Jews also have a different religion and language.

The vast majority of anti-Semitic and Islamophobic attacks are committed by white people. That's the key point. Again, the acting on prejudice is much worse than thinking it.

Excellent post pineapple

Humanity is diverse; difference matters. To recognize that aspect of humanity is not hate. I love the diversity of the world, but you must be mindful about how new arrivals will influence your country. It won’t always be a positive.

I think that has summed up the last few pages, one has tried to point it out, whereas others have been looking for a gotcha

Is humanity a 'they' or a 'them'?

Is humanity a 'they' or a 'them'?

IDPol has dictated that everyone is a they or them, the right was always going to use the same language.

I’ve not rtft but I thought of this when I saw the thread title:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxSSXV4lSp4

@Etino

That is briliant, we should just silence all everything, I mean all those right wing comediennes on TV (esp the BBC) at the minute is a serious issue, satire should be banned and yet the bbc should not goverment mouth piece (which i agree with) but then i need to get that information as an appeal to authority from the actual BBC, this is a ground breaking link you have delivered us....

@Justanotherlurker, I didn’t say I wrote it or even agree with every word, just that the title of this thread made me think of it. Not that I really understand your post

I think that if you genuinely believe (as per moussemoose and Chloe84) that the prevalence of intolerant views toward women, gays, Jews etc, that it is ok to murder anyone who publically criticises your personal beliefs - if you see no correlation between these things and Islam at all then you are being willfully ignorant. When have you ever heard of the EDL no matter how awful you find them decapitating people in public with machetes ?

A quarter of British Muslims want Sharia law.

One in six say they would like to live more separately.

Most people have a more cautious approach to the adherents of this religion, you condem it as prejudice I call it good sense.

Yes that is absolutely what I said. I said it is fine to murder people.

Any credibility you had is undermined by this hyperbolic nonsense. This is why we can't debate racism because disagreement becomes accusations of abetting murder.

This argument " these people are different, they have different views, they are not part of mainstream society, they want to destroy our way of life, they are not like us".

This argument has been used against Roman Catholics, Jews, Gays any minority group.

There are problematic views in many sections of British society. Over time and with education they change. To help these views change we need tolerance, understanding and education. And then some more education.

The ironic thing is that the Syrians that I teach are more opposed to extreme Islam than people in the U.K. because they are running from it. Many of the young people I teach whose lives and families have been torn apart by extreme religion educate others in the class as to why hate doesn't work.

these people are different, they have different views, they are not part of mainstream society

But this is all true. You think that the best thing to do is invite as many of them to live here as want to come and once they're here, explain to them why their ideas aboit society are wrong. It doesn't work.

they want to destroy our way of life, they are not like us

For a minority of them this is also very much true. If you don't see the difference you are being naive in the extreme. Roman Catholics, Jews, gypsies etc did not actually frown upon and totally disagree with our way of life, regard us all as sluts, nor did any number of them actually engage in mindless acts of mass murder like we've seen in Manchester.and paris. These things are unprecedented despite your attempt to dismiss them as teething issues.

And you demonstrate your total lack of understanding of history.

Yes Roman Catholic's were regarded as different and a threat to our way of life. There have been many anti RC riots. Has their ever been a RC PM? The Succession to the Crown Act was only repealed in 2013. The whole myth of bonfire night is anti catholic propaganda.

The arguments against the Jews are exactly the same as the arguments you put forward about Islam. The argument that they are trying to change our society is the argument used by Mosley and his Blackshirts.

Anti Irish riots were common in the North West of England in the later half of the 19th century. They were different, they took our jobs and broke strikes they didn't understand about being British.

You are merely repeating age old excuses used to persecute minorities.

I work with and educate many, many Muslim young people. You say education doesn't work well in my experience it does. I have open and challenging conversations with my students. We talk about the traditions and parts of their culture they wish to retain and the parts they don't like.

I am very clear that intolerance and discrimination is frowned upon in U.K. society wherever it comes from.

And I repeat, a lot of the refugees have learnt the lesson of intolerance and extremism and they share their experiences to the benefit of all.

When have you ever heard of the EDL no matter how awful you find them decapitating people in public with machetes ?

When have you every heard of Muslims in the UK decapitating people in public machetes?!

Are you seriously conflating all Muslims with a miniscule minority in war torn countries?!

That's as ridiculous as me saying all Christians should be discouraged from living in the UK because Nazis are Christians!

And yes, there was the despicable murder of the soldier here in the UK, but that was one individual with serious mental health issues.

RIP Jo Cox MP. Forgotten very quickly by some.

Perhaps you can point me at a historical example of where massive and relatively sudden migration has occurred without major incident ? Since you are the expert and all in favour of it.

Catholics, Jews are not the same and never were as well you know but do not want to admit. The language used to demonise Jews was not anything like what critics of Islam have been saying as again you must actually be well aware. But if not, point me at a Jewish equivalent of IS. Or am example of Roman Catholics machine gunning newspaper editors for a cartoon.

You don't think religious wars between Christians were violent?

Hmmm let me think of examples of Roman Catholic violence - lets try The Spanish Inquisition - no one ever expects that?

Let me think of examples of Protestant violence, any Irish posters care to join in with that one? I'm English so can't think of any examples.

Have you ever heard of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion? The enemy within our society. The international conspiracy of Jews?

The attitude to Roman Catholicism was for centuries exactly what you are saying about Islam. The belief that they were different, they were violent and they wanted to change our government and society. I'm not making this up there is legions of historical evidence to support me. Just because you haven't heard of it does not make me wrong.

Mass immigration does cause issues, and then the groups integrate and we forget about the issues caused. You prove the point as you have no idea about the turmoil caused by previous rounds of immigration.

That is briliant, we should just silence all everything, I mean all those right wing comediennes on TV (esp the BBC) at the minute is a serious issue

Exactly. And all these working class oiks who vote for the wrong thing all the time because they’re stupid. Well the richest AB classes were the only ones to vote in majority for remain, so clearly what we need to do is roll back all the reform acts and reintroduce the wealth qualification to vote. Then we’d get the right results.

Limit the franchise to the wealthy and heavily censor the press and media. Then we’d live in Utopia. It’s the only way. The Victorians were right all along.

It was the Victorians via the Reform Acts that began to extend the franchise.

The TUC the only consistent voice of working people is campaigning against Brexit.

It really isn't as simple as them and us.

Oh for Christ's sake. According to your logic the Holocaust was not particularly bad because you know the Romans did it to Carthage. Right ? Thats what your saying, that we shouldn't worry about islam because 500 years ago Christians were intolerant of Muslims, who as you will of course know had invaded and taken over the region by force.

The reasons that people in the UK were suspicious of Jews and Roman Catholics were based on unfounded fear. That does not mean that all fear of any other culture ever again and for any reason is forbidden.

The attitude to Roman Catholicism was for centuries exactly what you are saying about Islam.

No it isn't.

Mass immigration does cause issues, and then the groups integrate and we forget about the issues caused. You prove the point as you have no idea about the turmoil caused by previous rounds of immigration.

You don't listen. It is precisely because of the "issues" and "turmoil" we've seen in the past that people are wary, especially of the mass migration of Muslims to Europe, especially in such a short period, would be a disaster. This is an experiment foisted upon people who did not want it or get a say in it. These people do not share your liberal agenda.

No it isn't.

Wow, what an amazing argument 🙄😂

That's not exactly right. There is always a small element of truth in the fear.

Some Roman Catholics did want to overturn the British crown. You claim fear of Islam is unique. I think fear of Roman Catholicism may have been quiet valid after the '45 uprising.

A very few Muslims do want to overturn U.K. democracy. A very few members of the EDL want to overturn U.K. democracy.

Do you legislate and make policy based on the exceptions? You can but hard laws make bad cases.

It is the arrogance of the young or the ignorant that believes their circumstances are special and different. There is nothing that historically we have not seen before. To imagine the situation in Europe today is unique and special is just silly.

Stay clam, talk, educate, work together and build a future not hatred.