To blame Have I Got News For You for the mess we’re currently in?

[BertrandRussell]

None of this would have happened if Johnston, Farage and Rees-Mogg hadn’t been invited on and been allowed to present themselves as “good sports”.

The biggest issue with pre-Brexit discussion —propaganda by Farage and Boris et al— is that it was done in public domain, without ensuring that people who are using the power of vote are actually being fed the right information and that they have the capacity to analyse these issues and come to a logical conclusion. Cameron will never escape this blame even though he apparently managed to wriggle out of this mess as soon as he could.

Let me take this one step further:
Imagine you know two potential immigrants. Both are from countries that have ongoing violence and war. Both would like to leave ASAP and get somewhere safe to live their lives in safety. One of them is a doctor. The other is a survivor so will work very hard potentially. But has no qualifications currently.

You only have space for one. Who will you choose? I feel that the way you will reply to this is the way Oxbridge choose their candidates: from top 8-10 private schools of this country.
Not your problem though. You just want to live your life in peace so long as you don’t have to answer tough questions.

It's a real mystery how and why English is spoken in large parts of the world. How and why so many people want to come to the UK. It's almost as though.. I dunno... the UK might have quite a history in large parts of the world. A sheer mystery.

Young people all over the world learn English because it is the international language of communication, not because of any historical links to the U.K. English has supplanted French as the first foreign language in many school systems with historic ties to France.

FOM does not lead to mass Muslim migration. Many Brexit voters do have an issue with immigration but how you are twisting this to be about Islam is beyond me.

Islam is a peaceful religion twisted by some, exactly the same as Christianity.

There are pockets of cultural issues within certain groups in the U.K. homophobia, intolerance and an unwillingness to educate themselves and listen. But enough about the EDL, UKIP and the like.

All groups of people harbour racists.

I work with many kind, decent, patriotic Muslims who love the U.K. I work with many refugees. The people you are describing who hate others and are intolerant are not the people I meet at work and in my life. I only come across them on Brexit threads.

Like i say I believe anti islamic sentiment is behind a lot of it whether or not you believe that it has any basis in reality. I honestly think mass immigration could lead to the breakup of Europe. The EU is the start of it, and the rise of populist anti EU parties across the continent is all in response to a generally changing face of the continent that people had no say in, they see that pro EU parties are the ones who opened the gates at a very basic level.

Britain only left first because we got a vote the other countries don't even get a say.

Europeans I believe do generally rub along ok together, but Islam is quite different and you can minimise it all you like but the fact is people know that a large number of Muslims have deeply problematic and deeply held ideas. The ridiculous and sad thing is that when the shit hits the fan as e.g. in Manchester or Rotherham the response is that it is our fault, social services fault, Islam is not the problem etc oh and some whites are misogynistic arseholes too, so let's not look at the bigger picture.

The arguments you make against Islam ie 'Islam is quite different' are exactly the same arguments made against the Jews or any other minority group. You might not like that but it is true.

"Jews are different and outside of our society. They do not integrate and mix with us. Jews look different, dress differently and speak a different language. They believe different things to us. They are not the same as us. They will take over our society and change us, they can't change they want us to change."

Insert Jew, gypsy, Muslim or Roman Catholic in the paragraph above and you have the history of European persecution. It is the argument of the Gordon riots, the pogrom and the holocaust.

Read some history.

I accept that on the face of it it may look the same but it's a false equivalence. Jews do not look and dress differently to us by and large and integrate into other societies very well. Look at Israel compared to the Muslim countries round about it.

But if you look at the social tensions even large scale migration of white Christians (Catholic) into Glasgow has caused in the last century you'd be mad to think we can simply import millions of muslims, some of whom demonstrably despise our society and a large number who deeply dislike it and it will all be great. We put our fingers in our ears and shout racist at anyone who objects.

I really don't care what percentage of the population is Muslim. I do care what percentage of the population are intolerant racists.

In which case how can you not care that a high percentage of Muslims already in this country not to speculate on the tolerance of those arriving from other Muslim countries are indeed intolerant and homophobic and misogynistic. Again I can only conclude that you think it is an coincidence they happen to be Muslim. Head up arse.

Jews do not look and dress differently to us by and large and integrate into other societies very well. Look at Israel compared to the Muslim countries round about it.

They don’t now - well Orthodox Jews look very different. But Jews used to be perceived as looking very different, spoke a different language, and inhabited enclaves across Europe in exactly the same way Muslims do now. Shtetlekh they were called in E.Europe.

You don’t seem to grasp the Jewish history of being ‘other’.

Most Jews don't look different now but traditional Orthodox Jews do wear different clothes and speak a different language. They are different and not like us was the cry of the Nazis.

This is no false equivalence. You use the language of avoidance and nullification.

"It's different, it's not the same, I'm not like that, these people are not the same as us"

It is exactly the same.

When there was mass Irish immigration into the northwest of England there were anti Irish riots. The Irish were different, they didn't understand, they didn't integrate.

Same with the Jewish immigration after the pogroms, same with all immigration.

"They are different it's not me." Is the traditional cry that goes up before a massacre.

Jews do not look and dress differently to us by and large and integrate into other societies very well.

Not in my manor (north-east London).

Not that I find it matters. I'm not agitating for orthodox Jews not to be let into the country.

Well perhaps you should be telling the Jews to learn the lessons of history and open their own borders to millions of displaced Muslims round about them. Because they don't seem too keen on that idea. I mean you would think they would understand right ? You can tell them how all these Muslims are in "exactly the same" situation their forefathers were.

I think lecturing the Jewish state on the lessons of history is about one of the most offensive and ignorant things I've ever read on MN.

The Israelis do indeed open their boarders, and they have learnt the lessons of history in relation to their own people.

Are you not in the least uncomfortable that your argument of 'otherness' is the argument of racists and bigots throughout history.

Ok so now you’re adding anti-semitism to Islamophobia. I’m not keen on ardent Zionism but shoot me if ever say:

I mean you would think they would understand right.

I think lecturing the Jewish state on the lessons of history is about one of the most offensive and ignorant things I've ever read on MN.

The Israelis do indeed open their boarders, and they have learnt the lessons of history in relation to their own people.

Agreed.

Oh for gods sake. I give up - you were the one who raised the example of the jews and tried to tell us how we should interpret their history and lessons of it.

Israel is not keen on muslims either as you may have noticed, despite as you claim jews being their logical predecessors.

The Israelis do indeed open their boarders, and they have learnt the lessons of history in relation to their own people.

The Israelis do not take in refugees from Syria or other Muslim countries around them en masse. Where do you get this idea ? You are correct about them learning lessons though which will give you the answers as to why that is.

And which section of British society do you think holds the most anti-Semitic views ?

Fair play, I didn’t read that bit properly. No Israel does not take in Syrian refugees for example but it provides aid to civilians near its borders as well as some support for Syrian rebel groups in the south.

I'm not just talking about anti semantics. The language of 'they' and 'them' the conviction that 'they are different' that 'they are not the same'. The idea that we are threatened by 'them' because they will not change and they want to take us over.

"They are coming over here and they will not change they want to change us"

These arguments that you have explained, that Muslims are not like 'us' that they are 'different'.

These arguments are the same arguments that have been used against Jews and gypsies and the Irish and Roman Catholics and gays and the disabled and any group who are different.

Pure and simple prejudice. If you are on that Brexit bus I want no part of it.

Anti Semitism not ant semantics.

Which section of British society has the most anti Semitic views?

I'd say supporters of the EDL and similar parties. They would mainly be white non Muslims.

I'd say supporters of the EDL and similar parties. They would mainly be white non Muslims

Well this is mealy mouthed answer. The correct answer is Muslims who are twice as likely as the general population to hold anti-Semitic views. Again you are making a false equivalence, just because a small number of white people are racists doesn't mean that in general white British people have the same outlook about Jewish people and homosexuals and the role of women in our society as a great many Muslims do. You know this and it is simply moral cowardice not to admit it.

You never answered why you think it is that over half of British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal. Find an equivalent where anything like half of the general non Muslim population of the UK hold the same view. You appear to be suggesting that the pollsters are only asking the Muslim equivalent of the EDL.

Pure and simple prejudice

I have no problem in admitting to being extremely cautious about a culture where these views are so common. The question is why you seem to have no problem with it at all.

I work with young people and one thing I do is educate them away from hate.

Most groups of young people arrive with some form of prejudice. I am happy to discuss prejudice in the population. What I will not do is 'other' one particular group.

What you tend to find is some:
Middle class kids have prejudice against 'chavs'.
Working class kids have prejudice against Muslims or other foreigners.
Muslim kids are prejudice against homosexuality.

Most arrive as open minded, sympathetic, empathetic humans willing to accept and embrace others.

We discuss issues in class and work together to find solutions. Often those with problems with other groups of people have picked those ideas up from their parents. Older people who 'other' and think the other side won't change.

What helps no one and encourages hate is when people say "Islam is quite different an" No it really, really isn't.

I am happy to discuss but when terms like 'us' and 'them' and 'they ' and we' are used I can spot prejudice when I see it.