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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

A United Ireland

580 replies

poppiesallykatie · 13/12/2018 00:13

Not a goady thread or to stir, but how many are against it or for it? Obviously many in NI want to part of the Republic, many in NI want to part of Great Britain, how do the British people feel about it?

OP posts:
Sunflowersforever · 13/12/2018 08:23

@Juells

Ever thought about a job in the diplomatic service? You so have the skill set for complex and delicate situations.

Brexit would be a doddle then move on to the Middle East!

EmeraldShamrock · 13/12/2018 08:24

Worried not word. It is mainly unionists that hold old fashioned views. Many from the Republic will be march to change abortions laws in NI when/if brexit settles down. John Taylor DUP referred to our Taoiseacht as the Indian.

dippledorus · 13/12/2018 08:34

If you have to say “not a goady thread and to stir” then you’re usually doing the exact opposite.

HTH.

derxa · 13/12/2018 08:35

Interesting thread.

Dulra · 13/12/2018 08:38

A United Ireland will only be by consent of both NI and ROI. As NI moves more in favor it seems to me the ROI moves away (I live in ROI). If a United ireland is rejected in referendum no one is left at the mercies of Westminster

This is not accurate. Under the terms of the GFA the only people that have a vote on whether NI remains part of the UK or unite with the rest of Ireland are the people of NI. ROI citizens don't get to vote on this. We agreed to this under the terms of the GFA. Basically NI and NI alone get to decide their fate and as soon as a Sinn fein get their border poll and find out for real what people in NI want they will be looking for a referendum if they think majority will want to unite with Ireland.

bellinisurge · 13/12/2018 08:40

Ireland wanted independence but the UK didn't want to give it. Apart from anything else it had encouraged a large group of Protestants loyal to the UK crown to live and work in the six counties on the North East of the island of Ireland.
Eventually Ireland was given independence but was not allowed to have the six counties. Apart from anything else, the minority of Protestants (now call them Unionists or Loyalists) wanted to stay part if the UK and feared being part of Catholic Ireland. Trouble is, while they were now the majority in the six counties (now Northern Ireland) they too had to reckon with a sizeable minority of Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland. This "reckoning with" took the form of abusing basic civil rights along the lines of apartheid in S Africa and segregation in the southern states of the USA in the 60s. There were naturally Irish civil rights campaigners - often called the Nationalist Community. The UK government actually sent in troups to protect them. Or at least keep the peace. And then Bloody Sunday happened (google that) and the Troubles began in earnest. I won't summarise the Troubles but it was not "just" confined to murder and mayhem in Northern Ireland. The Good Friday agreement eventually and with lots of compromises brought a sort of peace. The DUP became the most powerful Unionist voice. Sinn Fein became the most powerful nationalist voice. Both have ill concealed links to terrorists who have now "stopped" fighting. An important feature of GFA is no physical manifestation of a border at the border. Which worked great when we were both in tbe EU. But needs some sort of fix after Brexit until a technological solution is found to replicate tbe pretence of no border despite NI as part of the UK being outside tbe EU. Tbe backstop is a way of sticking to crucial GFA promise of no border if a technological solution can't be found in tbe two year transition period offered by the Withdrawal Agreement. No deal tears this up.
As for Ireland. Its now a member of the EU, tbe grip of the Catholic Church has waned and it is arguably more progressive than NI in that it allows abortion in certain circs and equal marriage.
I'm sure Ive missed loads and got stuff wrong. Others may add of course. Does that help @Tellem2 ?

Juells · 13/12/2018 08:43

Ever thought about a job in the diplomatic service? You so have the skill set for complex and delicate situations.

Sick of the pandering to Unionists that I've seen all my life. They've always held the Conservatives to ransom because they could withdraw support and bring the government down, this current situation isn't anything new.

The Unionists can and do insult everyone all the time, they're aggressive and uncompromising. But the rest of us have to pretend that they're reasonable people to deal with.

dippledorus · 13/12/2018 08:43

Plus ca change. (Hope the pic works)

A United Ireland
FlaviaAlbia · 13/12/2018 08:45

I think CloserIAm2Fine has summed up what outsiders think about NI while also spectacularly missing the point.

I think they’re quite happy to be separate from the UK when it comes to retaining bigoted laws on abortion and gay marriage

Until the Brexit vote caused a return to tribal voting, NI had just had an election that had returned a parliament without the critical number of seats for the DUP to abuse the petition of concern and block gay marriage which has previously been passed then blocked by misuse of the petition.

If it hadn't been for Brexit allowing the DUP to fearmonger and regain their seats, it's highly likely we would have had equal marriage by now.

The ways Brexit appears to be screwing us over seems endless.

bellinisurge · 13/12/2018 08:49

Just to be clear, you know the crazy extremist Christian fundamentalists we all laugh at and puzzle over in the US. The DUP are those kind of protestants. Not the fluffy Prince Charles Justin Welby John Sentamu kind.

MissMalteser · 13/12/2018 09:01

Threads like this always make me so frustrated and sad!
I am from and live in NI, I absolutely detest the backwards politics we have to deal with, our people deserve better. But there is no easy solution, and if there was I still wouldn’t trust our politicians to take it Confused
But please remember that the majority of NI people just want to live peacefully and to create a better future for generations to come.
I don’t want a united ireland, I don’t particularly want to remain part of the uk either and I think we are many generations away from being ready to become our own entity
I think there will come a time when there will be a referendum but I don’t think I’ll see it in my lifetime
Also can all these eejits speaking about us as if we’re all DUPers or Shinners kindly feck off and stop with the stereotyping, it’s kind of offensive ya know? Hmm

PineapplePower · 13/12/2018 09:02

I am not Irish but have lived for a long time; my relatives seem to want a UI but are rightfully concerned about costs; however if NI wanted to unite, I really don’t think ROI would deny them! Costs are short-term, but there would be a long-term gain.

EmeraldShamrock · 13/12/2018 09:03

I have to say for those Irish saying they wouldn't want to unite, only IRA supporters want this. What crap. I am born and bred in Ireland. I live in a very diverse area from familys from India Africa Poland Germany Croatia Asia but no Ireland would except NI just everywhere else in the world.
I think NI would thrive under the EU, before this Brexit crap the economy was really taking off.
They definitely need a new independent government whatever happens.

bellinisurge · 13/12/2018 09:12

@MissMalteser , I don't know a single NI resident who wants anything other than peace and prosperity and to just get on with people.
I hoped that eventually there would be a move away from SF and DUP in politics as a sort of default vote depending on your "background ". In tbe bad days, they were both pretty marginal at least in politics.

theymademejoin · 13/12/2018 09:14

@redredrobins - They also are angry that active members of the IRA were given "get out of jail free" deals instead of being brought to justice for the murders committed by them in GB and elsewhere.

This really epitomises the ignorance of many British people. If you had said terrorists instead of IRA, fair enough but many British seem to think all atrocities that took place during the troubles were committed by nationalists. Loyalist terrorists committed atrocities. The defence forces also committed atrocities. Laying the blame on one side simply encourages division.

theymademejoin · 13/12/2018 09:23

I'm from the Republic. Ideologically, I want a united Ireland. However, as it stands, I don't think there is sufficient support in NI for it to be anything other than a disaster. It would need a very large majority support in order to avoid a return to violence. A slim majority in NI supporting a united Ireland would be the worst outcome.

I hope to see a peaceful reunification. But that's not in sight at the moment.

EmeraldShamrock · 13/12/2018 09:23

Loyalist terrorise nationalist. The police were loyalist, employers mainly loyalist.
For anyone bored looking to see more of it.
See Youtube Pop goes Northern Ireland there is many years on it.

Eyewhisker · 13/12/2018 09:24

Tellem2

The reason why Northern Ireland is split goes back to the British colonisation of Ireland.

Prior to the 1600s, England controlled only a small part of Ireland around Dublin (known as the English Pale).

Following the Reformation and the Spanish Armada, England was afraid that Catholic Ireland could be used as a base for a European invasion. The wildest, most Catholic part of Ireland was Ulster. England invaded Ireland, drove out many of the native Irish from Ulster in particular, seized lands and gave it to Protestant settlers from Britain. Laws were passed to prevent Catholics (native Irish) from owning land, being educated and practising their religion.

The descendants of these settlers are the present day Unionists/DUP. Largely, the Protestant population in what is now NI never integrated with the rest of the Irish population.

Ireland voted for Home Rule/Independence many times in the late 19th/early 20th Century. Supported by the Conservative Party, the Ulster Protestants threatened civil war if the wishes of the majority of the Irish people were respected.

In the 1918 election, Ireland voted overwhelmingly for independence. There was a Unionist majority in only 4 out of 32 counties. Aided by the Conservative party, the British government partitioned Ireland. In this their priority was not to respect local wishes, but to make sure that Northern Ireland was large enough to be viable but also not too large as not to have an inbuilt Protestant majority. The result was that they rather than just including the 4 counties which voted for the Union, they widened it to include 2 counties where there was a Catholic majority. Overall, at Partition NI was 70% Protestant, 30% Catholic.

After partition, there was a devolved government in NI. This government ran NI as a Protestant Government for a Protestant people and operated under a siege mentality. There was systematic discrimination against Catholics in employment, housing and government. Voting rights were restricted to homeowners, which disproportionately affected Catholics.

In the 1960s, inspired by the US Civil Rights movement, a NI civil rights movement started, campaigning to end discrimination. This was brutally resisted by the NI government and Catholics were burned out of their homes. The British army was sent in, originally to protect the Catholic population.

This all turned sour, partly because some used it as an opportunity to try and end partition and because of harsh tactics and mistakes on all sides. The result was 30 years of civil war.

The Good Friday agreement helped to bring an end to it. The vast majority in NI were fed up of the violence. Under the GFA, both communities have equal rights and equal respect. It recognises that NI is both British and Irish. It built in power-sharing so that majority rule and discrimination was outlawed. It was supported in referendums in both NI and the Republic. However, it was opposed by the DUP as they do not believe in compromise.

Today in NI, the border is invisible. The population is now 50/50 Catholic/Protestant and will soon have a Catholic majority. Under the GFA and EU, those who wish can live as though they are in a united country. Many people live in NI and work in the Republic and vice versa.

The DUP resent this as they feel that it threatens their ‘Britishness’. They vote for Brexit as it makes them feel more British and many in the DUP would quite like a hard border.

Sorry for the essay, but I am frustrated that there is such ignorance about this ‘integral part of the UK’.

Monkey1234 · 13/12/2018 09:25

I am from ROI and I can categorically say that we do not want a united Ireland. Anyone who says they do, have idealistic views of days well past and would have grown up in a very working or (non working to be more exact) class - reject any type of authority type environment.
These are the type who ridicule anything the queen does and spout on about the hardship Ireland faced because of the UK, yet is a strong supporter of man united or Liverpool and goes around wearing their jersey.

I have no animosity towards Great Britain or NI, but similarly I do not want the financial burden of NI which brings nothing to the table for ROI.

oh4forkssake · 13/12/2018 09:27

Northern Ireland was mainly protestant and this was the reason for it being separate and remaining part of the UK

In part. The ports and being the only industrialised part of the island didn't hurt either. Ship building was a pretty big revenue stream.

I'm Irish, and have never been in favour of a united Ireland either ideologically or practically. Ireland simply can't afford it. And culturally it is a very different place, so there are very few cultural grounds for reunification.

Auntiepatricia · 13/12/2018 09:28

I find this hilarious. Everyone thinks from the NI perspective like the UK/NI gets to decide if there’s a ‘united Ireland’. Typical egocentric thinking from the UK in relation to Ireland.

ROI might just have an opinion on where her they want to be shackled with NI.

Auntiepatricia · 13/12/2018 09:28

Oh, just read upwards and thank god some ROI people have also spoken up.

Heyjudas · 13/12/2018 09:31

It's not only the people of NI who can decide whether they want a United Ireland or not. If Irish people don't want them, they can decide what they like, but there will never be a United Ireland if the people of the Republic are not interested.

Heyjudas · 13/12/2018 09:33

Sinn Fein are the only party who want a United Ireland. No other party does. Sinn Fein doesn't hold anything like a majority in Ireland.

worridmum · 13/12/2018 09:34

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