A United Ireland

[poppiesallykatie]

Not a goady thread or to stir, but how many are against it or for it? Obviously many in NI want to part of the Republic, many in NI want to part of Great Britain, how do the British people feel about it?

Rossetti, you have criticised us for the governments we keep electing so tell the British, who should they be voting for to make thing better for NI?

I have no idea. I'm just pointing out that handwringing about having successive governments foisted on us is a little bit of a cop out.

The bottom line is for the vast majority of the population of England, Wales and Scotland, the problems NI faces aren't even in the "top 100 things to do by 3,000 AD" list. And now that pigeon coop is coming home big time.

Who is hand wringing??? People are saying this is nothing to do with us, we didn't get a say and we didn't vote for it. You then said it's our fault for voting in the govenments we do but surprise surprise have absolutely zero ideas about how to improve things... which is a bit of a cop out.

As this thread has made clear, NI is nowhere near the top of the ROI list of priorities either - it doesn't want the cost or the trouble but it can't shake off its commitment to it either.

the idea we today, English people today, are somehow personally responsible for Irish issues is surely hard to justify

I actually find this level of ignorance shocking. Genuinely shockingly poor understanding of the recent history of the UK.
The role of the British (majority English, no?) in inflaming a civil rights movement in Northern Ireland- yes, actually, I do hold people responsible.

Criticism is not a one way street. In Ireland, I hold responsible the authorities that allowed systematic enslavement of "fallen women". And, I hope that, in Ireland, we do not become complacent with our notions of new-found liberalism. That we use these past lessons to teach us about power and it's potential for abuse, especially when it wears the cloak of victimhood.

I expect the same from my neighbours in the UK.

We have no more agency in these affairs than on most other issues Governments decide over
Democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time....said someone, you may be familiar with him?

To reject/undermine your own agency in deciding the direction of your own country..... shocking. To see it from an intelligent, otherwise articulate poster....this is why I now rarely post on these threads.

I despair of where people's arrogance and fear is leading us.

Criticism is not a one way street. In Ireland, I hold responsible the authorities that allowed systematic enslavement of "fallen women".

Well if that's all that's needed, I've doubt there are plenty of Brits who hold the authorities responsible for all the shit they've caused in the UK, Ireland and many, many places around the world. You are responding to a poster who said that she wasn't personally responsible but note that you have said that you hold the authorities responsible, not yourself personally.

So we all hold the authorities responsible for distant and recent history.

And we have a democratic vote, so who should we be voting for in the UK to make things better for NI and what does making things better actually look like? We are shockingly arrogant and ignorant so... help us out.

Actually, mirialis, you've made a wonderful point.

I must clarify what I intended to say.
To me, the nebulous notion of "the authorities" in a democracy, is me and my contemporaries.
It is all too easy to shirk off the guilt as belonging to another era, "the past is a different country" and all that.

In fact, one of my concerns about Ireland at the moment, is that we are very quick to decry the errors of the past as belonging to the past, without examining the mindset and systemic faults that led to those errors.
I merely hold the UK to the same standard.

Before addressing your second point, miralis, let me also clarify the accusation of arrogance and fear.
I see this in my fellow Irish people, Northern and in the Republic.
Much of what is sometimes perceived as bigotry and arrogance on the part Unionists, is fear based.
You only have to look at the interview that Paddy Kielty did with Arlene Foster.

But, I also see that there is an arrogance and fear on the part of Brexiteers. A desire to return to what might be perceived as the certitude of the powerful, empire past. Instead of rowing in wholeheartedly in the European experiment.
Please don't interpret my words as being a one-way criticism. I am relatively clear-eyed about the failings of this country, also.

Ok, so we're all held to the same standard and we're all personally guilty for the wrongs the authorities have inflicted on people in the recent past, even those people who were victims of those wrongs themselves.

Ireland is catching up with this "new-found liberalism"... who should the UK electorate be voting for to make things better for NI, and what does "better" actually look like?

Miralis (excuse using your name repeatedly, but I want to address your points).

I sense a defensiveness in your second point.
You're asking me, a foreigner, for whom you should vote.
I think that's akin to asking the neighbours what type of wallpaper to hang in the dining room. It's your decision to make, although I may have an opinion.
At the moment, I think your local wallpaper supplier is doing a poor job of giving you options. They seem to be targeting the cheap and shiny end of the market. I don't mean to cause offence with that analogy.

" what does making things better actually look like? "
This.
This is the nub of it. What we had in place under the GFA, while not perfect, was adequate. Many of us, North and South, I believe, felt that it was an evolving agreement, not static.
It was effectively reducing the background temperature of distrust between the two sides in Northern Ireland.

The UK (again, a majority in England and Wales I believe) voted to leave the EU.
I think what irks Irish people, is that no consideration was given to the peace situation in Northern Ireland, although we tried to warn you.

I think I cross posted with you, so that was in response to your 12.10 post

I am very firmly pro-Remain but you cannot say that all of the Brexiteers are motivated by arrogance and/or fear! There is a genuinely held belief that, having been part of the "European experiment" for DECADES that there are many, many absent and distant Eurocrats riding the gravy train at the expense of the less well-off and that not being dictated to by a central administration in Brussels would allow self-determination of the nation and better servicing of the people of the UK by the government. How do you explain Norway and Switzerland's refusal to "row in wholeheartedly"?

Stating that "Eurocrats" are riding the gravy train... it's quite emotive, no?
What does it mean?
In what way does it differ from the bureaucrats of any govt. system abusing that system for themselves?
I don't see it as any better or worse than the administration of Irish or British or French or German government. It is the way that government operates.
I don't agree with it, and I look for better systems of checks and balances.

As for the self-determination of nations?
I'm Irish, and I find the notion of Britain making decisions on that basis to be ironic.
Particularly in the context of a discussion of the impact on Ireland.

Not being dictated to by centralised government .... what of the Remain vote of Scotland and Wales?

I would far rather, that Britain would stay in the EU, working with your allies (and I consider Britain to be one of Ireland's best allies in the EU context) to improve the institutions and democracy of the EU.

As for Switzerland......historically, have maintained neutrality which served them well in WW2 leading to a culture that does not see a benefit to what was originally (let's not forget) a common economic area established after WW2.

Norway- that's all about the Common Fisheries Agreement.

Of course I'm taking the defensive position at this part of the discussion. Brits have to take personal responsibility for voting for the governments they have and be guilty for the troubles and yet your suggestions are...???

Because it's really not that simple is it?

People of ALL political persuasion, throughout the UK - including in Scotland and NI - voted to leave the EU. If the result of the majority Remain vote in NI and Scotland is that they then choose to leave the union of England and Wales then that would be entirely understandable (but very unlikely for various reasons).

A large part of the self-determination arguments are about bringing government closer to the people for accountability and power to change and removing ever higher layers of government where people are earning enormous salaries with little transparency about what it is they are doing and how their pay and expenses are justified.

Forget your finding it "ironic" as an Irish person - it's irrelevant.

UK governments have complained about these issues in Europe and got nowhere. Many, many Remainers recognise this. Now the rumblings are starting to take hold in other countries - not least France - following the Brexit vote it is likely that some limited reform at least will have to happen and my strong personal wish is that the UK can remain in the EU; however, no one else was doing anything about it so it's a bit late for people to be saying the UK should be trying to reform the EU from within because they tried and got no support from "allies".

The NI border issue will be sorted - both the EU and the UK have been clear that no border is going up no matter what, which is why we are still where we are after all this time.

Is that really the biggest issue "the Irish" have with the Brexit vote? Is it not simply more about Ireland's self-interest?

There is a huge whiff of hypocrisy.

I don't understand why you are asking for my suggestions as to what the options on UK government might be.
Genuinely, don't understand but am interested why you ask?
Is it that you accept that the UK might take responsibility for the errors in the past- not as a stick with which to beat you in arguments, but only to help avoid them in the future?

People of ALL political persuasion, throughout the UK - including in Scotland and NI - voted to leave the EU.
From where I stand, it doesn't seem to me that it was a truly informed decision.

the self-determination arguments are about bringing government closer to the people for accountability
I agree that many elements of the EU are unwieldy, and cloudy.

Finding it ironic that the UK stands on the point of self-determination, is not ironic at all.
Coming from a country that tried for centuries to "brexit" itself, to assert it's right to self-determination of it's own nationhood. Which, having had it's parliament not only hobbled, but removed and centralised in Westminster, yes, I find it ironic that Britian now uses the same language to remove itself from the EU. An institution that was (and still tries) to balance the powers across Europe so that we don't end up in 1939 again.

Ironic is absolutely appropriate.

UK and other governments have complained about this for many years. And, yes, Brexit may give impetus for this to happen. Hurrah, now please, stand with us. A strong, Britain-inclusive EU is essential to counter-balance the threats of a right-wing resurgence, Russia, China etc.
And it is simply untrue to say that the UK stands alone trying to reform from within without support from, yes, your allies and friends.

Is that really the biggest issue "the Irish" have with the Brexit vote? Is it not simply more about Ireland's self-interest?
Yes, it totally in my self-interest that peace remains stable on this island, and I apologise to no-one for saying so.

That hard-negotiated peace should be sacrosanct- and it is untrue to say that it not at risk.

I don't believe the interest is all about peace - not least because people from Ireland have said as much. When the border situation is resolved - which it clearly will be even in the catastrophic no-deal scenario - it comes down to Ireland's economic self-interest.

I didn't say your finding something ironic was inappropriate - I said it was absolutely irrelevant. There was support for Brexit amongst Scottish nationalists. The language of the Scottish and Irish independence campaigns were obviously very powerful as it seems to have spread. It would be sheer hypocrisy to criticise others for feeling the same way whilst celebrating your own achievement of this ideal!

Again, I will say I'm very pro-Remain (despite being lucky enough to have dual nationality and in a position to be largely shielded from the fall out of Brexit) but harking back to 1939 does not stand up to scrutiny in 2018. That said, you don't need to convince me that Britain and the rest of Europe are better in a unified and strong, rather than ad hoc, arrangement when it comes to being bolstered against Russia when the US has a madman at the helm, but I am absolutely not wrong to say that the UK stood alone in its wanting EU reform and was seen as being arrogant (surprise surprise) and disruptive. Things started to shift post the Brexit vote when even "progressive" and "liberal" people elsewhere started to say... hmmm... hang on...

Both you and Rossetti have said it is the personal responsibility of Brits today who governs them and have opinions on UK politics and how it affects NI - and therefore also Ireland - so it is certainly not unreasonable for either of you to actually suggest how we culpable Brits with a vote could do things differently in 2018 rather than just pointing the finger. Otherwise it all just gets subsumed into the general "you arrogant, ignorant English" white noise and achieves nothing positive.

The idea that ordinary English people are somehow morally responsible for Ireland is very unfair. I am no more responsible than my ancestors who stayed in Dublin. I voted remain. My ancestors (rish and English and Scottish) were poor and certainly did nothing to hurt the irish people.

Xenia - your ancestors could all have been Lord and Lady Snooty the Slave Traders. It doesn't matter. Don't get sucked into that.

I agree even if they were people today are not responsible for that (although they won't - I've tracked a lot back to the 1700s and no one had a penny)

xenia you're such a gf
You have no idea what your ancestors did or didn't do, whether they were poor or not.
You comment on every Irish/NI/brexit thread. Talking nonsense. You sound like an American whose great great great grandmother knew an Irish person.
You haven't a clue

I do know what a lot of them were doing -the sailors on Orkney - good Scottish records. The 1829 application of one ancestor on the farm in Ireland to apply for the title etc etc.

Presumabhly however you agree with us that the English who voted remain whose ancestors whether from England or Ireland had no money nor power are as little to blame for the problems of Ireland as people in Dublin? No one could really disagree with my point.

the problems of Ireland What problems? We're perfectly fine here.

perfectly fine here.

😀

I have not read any of the Ireland or Brexit threads on here and can see that there is some sort of antagonism here spilling over from previous threads...

but Xenia is obviously talking about the past when she talks of "the problems of Ireland" and it's very likely that her ancestors were poor - wealth is highly concentrated amongst a tiny percentage of the population today, let alone in the past.

I just don't think what your ancestors - no matter how recent - were up to has anything to do with you in terms of blame or celebration. Looking at what happened in the past is of course very important but that has nothing to do with you personally and what you can actually do today.

Xenia - you either have no clue about Irish history - and you should because it’s also British history. Or you do know if it’s history and you come on these treads just to goad and wind people up.

You are not worth engaging in intelligent debate with as both reasons reflect your poor values.

Maybe Xenia's next door neighbour had an Irish Setter.
Take the hint.

Ok, this was starting to come across as really a bit mean so I did search for posts on "Ireland" by Xenia. One was enough.

Xenia, sorry but can only concur that you seem to be deliberately very goady and then playing the faux naif and I really can't work out why you would want to do that but it kills debate and any genuine attempts to share, challenge or change perspectives on a sensitive subject.