To feel that if you don’t work 9-5 and have no family to help you’re screwed for childcare once your DC start school.

[legoonthetable]

Most people accept that they take a huge financial hit in terms of childcare costs in the pre school years, but do so knowing that they keep their place in the career ladder and once DC are at school the child care would go down. I naively never considered that this wouldn’t be the case for us and am just feeling totally screwed by my lack of choices, despite a good well paid job. And I know I’m far from alone. I work shifts which include 8am starts, midnight finishes and nights. There is no flexibility with start times and I rarely leave on time. DH works 14 + hr days leaving at 7 and rarely home before 7 + logging on again form home. His company is not family friendly and atm moving jobs isn't an option. He has to be at his desk by 8am. School wrap around care is from 7.30am-6pm. Its simply not possible to drop DC at breakfast club and be at work by 8 and we often have an hour at the other end that we also often can’t cover. We had the same nanny for 6 years and agreed to keep her on once youngest DC started school mostly for continuity. She agreed to do a tiny amount of general housekeeping in the 6 hours a day she was child free. She refused to clean, which I didn’t think was unreasonable; she’s a nanny, not a cleaner. Without going into details it pretty quickly became clear that whilst she was absolutely brilliant for our pre school DC doing the school run and holiday childcare for older children wasn’t her thing. We made her redundant and we’ve been struggling along abusing using friends, neighbours, and random paid help(no family close enough to help regularly)since. I have a friend in a similar position (totally different field of work). She employs a nanny-housekeeper. And whilst she loves coming home to a tidy house and a cooked meal, she doesn’t think her employee is that great with her DC. And I’ve heard many others say you either have someone who keeps the house going or someone who is brilliant with DC but its rare to get one person who is brilliant at both. My choices now are either to employ a nanny- housekeeper and accept that most of my salary will essentially go towards paying someone to do very little for 6 hours a day while I work my bollocks off for the next 13 years or give up work…….because if the financial gain is minimal (despite doing a fulfilling job that I mostly enjoy)there really seems no point. I’m not expecting anyone to come up with some magical solution…..I think we’ve been through every possible option, I’d just like some solidarity with people in the same position.Tonight I'm really angry about it.

The government introduced a flexible working policy a couple of years back - everyone has the right to ask for flexible working and the employer has to reasonably consider the request. See the website below. This might help you:
www.gov.uk/flexible-working

believeit I'm not sure you've RTWT. I can't just change jobs, and many pp have also said that this is not a helpful suggestion. Many people who are highly qualified can't just shift sideways into family friendly version of whatever it is they are trained in. Obviously I could go and work at the check out in tesco, but that would a)be taking a job from someone who really needed the job at tesco and b) be a huge waste in training. I've previously mentioned a MN thread where GPs were slated for working part time. I'm not a GP, but if I was and I wrote "AIBU to want to work 9-5 3 days a week as a GP to fit round my family" the general response would be "of course YABU, people aren't sick 9-5 on 3 days a week, we paid for your training and you should work till you drop regardless of whether you have a DH/DC/any other life outside your job".....I've seen those exact comments on MN.

OP what I hope to tell my daughter is that she can have it all, but not all at the same time. I love this, and I'm going to steal it.

so if you want the GPs to provide OOH care then perhaps it IS the childcare that needs to change, because statistically the likelihood of a GP having a partner who also works shifts (in healthcare) is pretty high.

OP I don't think you're being particularly open minded- people have suggested a number of options- not just the obvious ones but some to kind of fit your specific situation and you don't seem to be taking that on board - you're just repeating the no job v current job choice, and anything else is giving up / jacking it all on / a sacrifice too far. Why is that?

I've previously mentioned a MN thread where GPs were slated for working part time

Maybe it was a different thread but the one I read recently on the same topic was actually largely supportive of PT GPS

I feel sad for you and your family, and I totally understand your frustration with the message of “you can have it all.” Posters suggesting it’s common sense that you can’t have it all may not have had quite the same experiences. There can be a lot of pressure, and it’s confusing when you hear the you-can-be-anything-you-want message everywhere. It’s not reality - there are always compromises because life has limits.

I was successful academically and because I had “potential,” I was pushed by the people around me, and I pushed myself too. I had to use my abilities to better the world, be powerful, actualize myself, make money, etc. I took this message to heart and felt a responsibility to be my very best in terms of career. No one ever talked to me about what it would be like if I had a family. That was an afterthought, something for the future, and it was left in the background as a part of my life that would just fall into place by itself.

I haven’t had children yet, but if I do, I am planning to structure my life around family first, meaning considering the needs of children, husband, and myself too. I don’t want the stress, the constant lack of time, or children that have to live in chaos. It’s such a tough reality, but all you can do is prioritize. It was not easy to come to conclusions I did. Anyway, just wanted to say I’m angry about this too. Hope you find a solution that works for you.

OP, tell your son that too, if you have a son.

Firesuit Thu 13-Dec-18 16:40:47
["Careers still rely on having a 'wife' at home doing unpaid or relatively low paid labour."]
If this were true single childless people would not be able to have careers

Not really sure what your point is there.

Single parents can have careers if there are lowly paid people taking care of the children and the domestic side of things, and people with a SAHP have someone doing it all for free.

Sorry, have you explained why you can’t get an au pair? Surely that’s the obvious solution? There seems to be a lot of whinging here. You work irregular hours so you need a nanny/housekeeper, an au pair or a v flexible childminder. Where we live, children go to school til just after 1 until they’re 7, then til 2 until they’re 12. We work irregular hours so we will have to pay for a nanny/housekeeper, or get an au pair. That’s just the way it is. What do you actually want to change? School to be open til 9 at night, or what?

so if you want the GPs to provide OOH care then perhaps it IS the childcare that needs to change, because statistically the likelihood of a GP having a partner who also works shifts

I don’t expect individuals to tie themselves in knots to provide OOH. I want the system to change such that it gave people more balance. But that won’t happen so you have to take responsibility and make changes. Either speak to your employer or change jobs. And it’s not a case of switching to something low paid. Stop being so black and white.

I just think you’re being unrealistic about the situation.

You have children. A family. Your hours make childcare difficult. So something has to change.

I’m a qualified accountant. Senior. Worked stupid hours which meant my dcs saw the worst of me and vice versa. It wasn’t feasible to carry on paying for childcare while we were all unhappy. So I’m taking a break while I reasses.

It’s about making choices and taking responsibility for what you can do instead of looking to blame.

There are so many family friendly employers out there now I don't know why you put up with employers who live in the dark ages. There are lots of options- term time/ flexible working/parental leave. Make sure you tell them in your exit interview that their inflexibility list them staff.

It sounds like you and your husband both have very demanding and unsocial hours at work. Your husbands female boss needs to fuck off back to the Ark - ridiculous archaic attitude that leads people to a miserable life, miserable family and probably an early grave working two days per day - what a dick and dick-ish attitude to hind over everyone's heads!
I don't have a solution except flexible working policy or some sort of liaison with the company/union to get family friendly hours for those in that transient time in their lives

fairylightinesadly many employers only pay lip service to family friendly policies and it certainly doesn’t seem to include the NHS

Agreed Pease. The reality is lots of clinical NHS jobs are not family friendly if you do not have any out of hours childcare available. In addition, while some Trusts and departments manage rotas well, in others it is made incredibly difficult to fit in family life. Same as policing etc.

What annoys me is that this was never even mentioned in any careers advice I was given and certainly not mentioned in school. I was pushed towards being a doctor at my (very academic girls’) school. Thankfully I didn’t listen, moved school for A Levels and chose a more family friendly role. Even then I have had to change speciality and severely impact my future career prospects to do so.

I get that; it’s the way of the world but I think we should be honest about that instead of the ‘having it all’ line. As a family maybe you can have it all. But as PP have said, both parents cannot in many jobs unless they have family help with childcare, an au pair or a huge amount of money to spend on the problem.

Your issue here is that you don't think childcare is as important as your career and is not worth paying properly for.

this is why men won't sacrifice their existing position as default 'earner'. Not only because its hard, often annoying work, but because it is seen as less than. And by saying you don't want to 'give away' your money to someone doing it you are propagating that idea.

The problem here is your husband and his refusal to accept his responsibilities as a parent and a partner. Working those hours is just not on when you have a young family.

There are so many family friendly employers out there now I don't know why you put up with employers who live in the dark ages.

Either speak to your employer or change jobs. And it’s not a case of switching to something low paid. Stop being so black and white.

I think both PP here are being pretty naive. If you live in a city with lots of childcare options then it might be a lot easier to get a job with good hours, but in lots of smaller towns or rural areas it's just not possible.

Lots of employers will say they're family friendly but in reality they're at liberty to refuse your requests for flexi-time/part-time hours if it doesn't "work for the business." Around here, for example, the biggest industries are hospitality, retail and tourism. All jobs that require shift work, irregular hours/days off, overtime in peak season and less hours in the winter months - they're really not family friendly. You have to fit the needs of the business, not the other way around.

It's very hard to find an employer here who will give you set days off in order to arrange childcare, and it's nigh-on impossible to arrange childcare when you have different days off every week.

Of course you can work in a local city and commute, but then you have the issue of getting home in time for the childminder/nursery pick up, or arranging childcare so you can leave in time to drive to the city and get to work for 9am.

Some people on here seem to think it's as simple as "request different hours" or "get a new job" - it's really not that easy! If I asked my employer for set days I'd be told yes, but in reality I'd be expected to shift around to cover holidays and absences, which just isn't possible when you have children who need looking after and can't afford emergency childcare.

The issue (as it often is on these career/childcare threads) is your DH and his belief that his job is too important to risk. He hasn't even requested flexible working!

Yes, his career might suffer if he did, but so does the career of every women who requests flexible working, or part-time working, or who switches to a less demanding job, or who gives up work entirely to be a SAHM mum. That's what you have to do when you become a parent. Why should that penalty be suffered only by Mums and not by Dads?

Out of interest, whats your DH's solution to your childcare problems? Or has he left it for you to solve?

It's funny, on MN when you have a thread like this, you either get:

1. Man's job pays more = must be protected at all costs and he can't be expected to do any of the childcare juggling.

1. Woman's job pays more = she has more flexibility and should handle the childcare juggling so man can advance in his career.

I posted the same comment on a thread that described 2 only a few days ago. But for some reason that logic doesn't apply to the OP's DH. He gets to keep his career completely intact and unaffected by having children. It must be nice to be a man.

If I was in OP's shoes, I'd be re-evaluating the whole work/home/lifestyle/finances situation.

It seems crazy to me that two people, working long/unsocial hours in jobs that are inflexible, can't afford a p/t nanny or a house with a spare room. I'd be asking myself if those careers were worth it, tbh or,if they were, looking at moving to a bigger house in a cheaper area that had room for an au pair.

Yes. Actually what I should have said above is

'Your issue here is that you don't think childcare is as important as your careers and is not worth paying properly for.'

The only standard jobs that are compatible with family life are teaching...and anything else you can find within a fifteen minute drive from DC's school that want to employ you from 9-3 in term time only.....so serving lunch in the local pub or coffee shop or being the school dinner lady

Thats really not the case though is it? It’s naiive and silly to think that all parents with a decent work life balance are working 9-3.

I work full time in a well paid job (office based) but have compressed to 4 days - Mon-Thurs 8-6.

Dh has done the same - compressed to 4 days, and only works Mon-Wed and Saturday (although longer hours and some late nights on these days).

3 dc go to a cm 3 days a week, who they love. 4 days a week we need no childcare. I drop the dc off every morning and pick them up...I work 5 minutes from cm.

We have a pretty good work-life balance, only 3 days childcare needed and two ft incomes. It hasn’t fallen in our laps though and we’ve had to choose career moves carefully, researched flexible working and made proposals for compressed shifts to employers etc.

All these people going in about asking for flexible working , frankly in an awful lot of banks, lawyers, accountants above a certain level it’s just not an option . Recently heard of one response to a request for shared paternity leave “ does he want a career- absolutely no way !”

Also the OP has clarified that often she only needs a couple of hours care a day , she knelt works part time but when she is working it’s shifts, so it’s not that she never sees he children.

The OP has also said that she works in a profession where there is a shortage and I think in health, so obviously as a society we should want someone like that to continue to be able to use their skills

She's also said they're both paid well. So you choose. You sacrifice the salary and other benefits of a full time career or you pay someone else to do the childcare - which in fairness involves a lot of the kind of hanging around SAHPs are always being slagged off for. You decide it's worth it either way or you don't have kids.

What is your solution OP?

Could your husband not change jobs and earn a little less to facilitate an easier spli