To feel that if you don’t work 9-5 and have no family to help you’re screwed for childcare once your DC start school.

[legoonthetable]

Most people accept that they take a huge financial hit in terms of childcare costs in the pre school years, but do so knowing that they keep their place in the career ladder and once DC are at school the child care would go down. I naively never considered that this wouldn’t be the case for us and am just feeling totally screwed by my lack of choices, despite a good well paid job. And I know I’m far from alone. I work shifts which include 8am starts, midnight finishes and nights. There is no flexibility with start times and I rarely leave on time. DH works 14 + hr days leaving at 7 and rarely home before 7 + logging on again form home. His company is not family friendly and atm moving jobs isn't an option. He has to be at his desk by 8am. School wrap around care is from 7.30am-6pm. Its simply not possible to drop DC at breakfast club and be at work by 8 and we often have an hour at the other end that we also often can’t cover. We had the same nanny for 6 years and agreed to keep her on once youngest DC started school mostly for continuity. She agreed to do a tiny amount of general housekeeping in the 6 hours a day she was child free. She refused to clean, which I didn’t think was unreasonable; she’s a nanny, not a cleaner. Without going into details it pretty quickly became clear that whilst she was absolutely brilliant for our pre school DC doing the school run and holiday childcare for older children wasn’t her thing. We made her redundant and we’ve been struggling along abusing using friends, neighbours, and random paid help(no family close enough to help regularly)since. I have a friend in a similar position (totally different field of work). She employs a nanny-housekeeper. And whilst she loves coming home to a tidy house and a cooked meal, she doesn’t think her employee is that great with her DC. And I’ve heard many others say you either have someone who keeps the house going or someone who is brilliant with DC but its rare to get one person who is brilliant at both. My choices now are either to employ a nanny- housekeeper and accept that most of my salary will essentially go towards paying someone to do very little for 6 hours a day while I work my bollocks off for the next 13 years or give up work…….because if the financial gain is minimal (despite doing a fulfilling job that I mostly enjoy)there really seems no point. I’m not expecting anyone to come up with some magical solution…..I think we’ve been through every possible option, I’d just like some solidarity with people in the same position.Tonight I'm really angry about it.

Au pair or weekly boarding for the children.

Having primary school age children is hard from a working parent perspective. Nursery is the easy part.

To be honest, if your DH is working 14 hour days as standard and you are working crazy shifts then one of you needs to change job. Your children shouldn't be shunted from pillar to post to accommodate your working hours if you can afford an alternative, it's not fair on them.

I sympathise op but it is your working hours and work / life balance that is the problem. I think if possible, one parent needs shorter hours or a more family friendly role from the baby years to when they start secondary school. Childcare from 7.30am - 6pm is standard here. I don’t know any nurseries that open longer hours than that, our nursery’s start time is 8am unless we pay even more for a 7.30am drop.

There are an alarming number of fathers whose jobs are apparently sacred - no flexibility, no time off, but no option to change jobs either - so that their partners and children have to suck up all the consequences indefinitely.

@adeline I don't think anyone's suggesting it's easy to find alternative jobs. Different jobs don't have to be lower paid jobs - the OPs H could get one that allows some flexibility or closer to home so that they could use "standard" childcare like breakfast club / after school club / child minder.

Having said that, unfortunately it's a reality (I have 3 children, all of my friends have children) that most people apart from on MN don't have family help and 2 x FT working parents + managing childcare is difficult. It's usually a question of stumping up for expensive, bespoke childcare, or looking to change jobs for more flexible / closer / reduced hours options.

adaline - not to mention that you can't always go back to the point where you left off once the children are old enough to not need 24/7 care, if you decide to get another job or go part time.

When you consider that so much taxpayer money pays for university education, surely society should be figuring out ways to help those with training or expertise to stay working in jobs they are trained or educated for, and not taking part time roles or jobs that would suit people with few qualifications? When that happens the people who used to have those jobs are out of luck. Nobody wins when childcare is treated as a luxury or an afterthought.

You need to change jobs. Sorry but your children need to be a priority here. It’s nit just about practicalities but also the emotional support they need.

I have chopped and changed my hours. I came to the realisation that my nanny was shit with school aged children. So we got rid and I’m taking time out while we reasses.

It’s not fair on the dcs - long term it does them no favours to have poor childcare.

There are flexible empmoyers - flexible or reduced roles are not always career-ending roles where you don't need qualifications

I may misunderstand the combination of hours but I don’t understand when you as parents see your children? Even with nursery when did you see them?

I also don’t understand regular 14hr days out of the home - what job is that? It doesn’t sound feasible for a long period of time before burn out.

Thanks for the comments, esp adaline. The "get another job" line really isn't helpful. We are both in niche jobs. I've seriously considered packing mine in, but am struggling to accept chucking away 25 years of studying and training and bowing out of an already very stretched workforce. If I take a break of more than a couple of years I won't be able to go back.

I don't work 8am-midnight. I might work 8am-4pm OR 4pm-midnight.But if we need those hours covered some of the days we need to pay for them regardless of whether I actually work them. I work 3 days a week. We were chucking A LOT of money at the problem with the previous nanny, and coming home to unfed un-homeworked children and the house a bit of a tip. I think she just lost interest in the end.

I've not found one CM willing to work the hours we would need. We would regularly need a 6.45am start, and even if I could find someone I really don't think its fair on the DC. And we have had an utterly hideous experience with an au pair, so reluctant to try that again.

I think what so many of you have said, and what is totally pissing me off (not that you've said it, but that its the reality of being a mother), is that once you have children the answer seems to be change your job, or hire someone else to look after them. So why on earth was I fed "you can do and be anything" in my highly academic girls school. Because its pretty obvious that I can't. Or my husband can't. No-one is taught at school "you can be anything you want until you have children and then you have to decide whether you are happy to farm them out to someone else to bring up or end your career". And while our situation is at the more extreme end, I know that we are far from unique, and there are many many more woman who JUST make it work, but only JUST. I think we were all fed (and girls are still fed) a lie. And tonight I'm really cross about it.

The lack of childcare isn’t the problem it is the number of hours a day you and your H work. Lots of people works shifts ie emergency services, NHS etc and manage with childcare. When do you see your children? I suggest weekly boarding is your solution.

once you have children the answer seems to be change your job, or hire someone else to look after them

Yes that is the reality of the world.

You have to take responsibility for dealing with it as you cannot change it right now.

Your cchildren are priority so actually, maybe, you both need to make the changes to make life better for you all as a family.

I came to that realisation and will fight the battle another day. In the meantime I want my children to have a decent childhood and that means I need to make changes to suit them.

Butterflymuffin.....I have one of those.

Have you actually spoken to the childminders? I advertise my hours as 7:30-6:00 but have worked 13.5 hr days for shift working parents in the past.

I totally feel your pain. I've managed to wrestle my job into 3 days across 4, so I am in theory "having it all" but the reality is that I am in a fairly mundane role with no hope of progression (which frustrates me no end when I see less experienced but full time, childless colleagues getting opportunities that don't open up to me) and I'm frazzled like crazy rushing to and from school every day, trying to keep everything going.

As you say - when they tell you to aim for the stars at 17/18 - no one tells you this is how it'll be. It's very depressing. I sincerely hope it'll change somehow by the time my daughters are adults.

Yep. No one can have it all. There has to be some sacrifice. My husband has had to change his work to only work from around 3am or 4am to then finish to pick up from school and he has to do all the evening routine, parents evenings etc as it is not possible for us both to work and find childcare without the children doing 10-12 hour days without seeing their parents and paying out all our wages. We no longer see each other, my husband has to stay awake for about 17 hours a day and I miss my children alot. The other option is I do more at home and he works more but he earns less and we couldn't manage the bills. I wish we had family support too. It's hard.

I keep repeating this but have you OP and your H formally applied for flexible working? Have you looked at other employers albeit you're in a "niche" role or do you just anticipate that you can't move jobs? Maybe thinking outside the box and obviously not ideal but what about finding a school close to one of your jobs? Moving house (and school) to be closer to work?

I too would suggest weekly boarding in your situation. You can concentrate on work during the week, your children have more stability and you get quality time at the weekend.

I’m not sure anyone has ever said that you can have children, two parents in inflexible jobs and have it all. Something has to give.

I just think it's kind of self evident though - no you can't be in two places at once. You can't give your all to your career and also be the one at home caring for your kids because each of those is a distinct full time job.

It sucks, it's unfair that it's mainly women who are the ones torn/sacrificing, but without wanting to sound all 1950s, I didn't have my kids for someone else to raise them and I just don't care about my career right now because I'll be working for another 30 odd years once they hit secondary school and that's more than enough time for my career.

It will delay progression but frankly I just don't care - you have one life and it should be spent on what you value the most, whatever that is. For me, that's soaking up every bit of my kids childhood while I can. For my husband, it's a balance - he has reduced his career focus to allow family friendly hours for a few years before it ramps back up when they're a bit older.

Yes, I find it a nightmare. It was easier when my dd was little and we did a mix of nursery and part-time nanny. Now she is too old for nanny or holiday clubs etc but still needs me and I find the home/work juggle very difficult. No choice as I am a lone parent.

I don’t really understand what you’re surprised about though
You seem surprised that you can’t be at work and at home at the same time and therefore need childcare... ?!

I think we were all fed (and girls are still fed) a lie. And tonight I'm really cross about it.

You are right to be angry. It is a big pile of horse poo.

Careers still rely on having a 'wife' at home doing unpaid or relatively low paid labour. It is appalling in this day and age that employers can get away with this assumption and treat employees as if their lives consisted of eating, sleeping and working while 'someone else' magically does family life, cooking, cleaning, and secretarial duty for them.

I feel your pain. I am a single parent and it is bloody hard. Have you asked your employer if you could change your hours so you start a bit later at 8.30 or 9am? That will make it much easier to find a CM. Not sure if it's possible with the work you do, but worth a try if not already attempted.

...flexible or reduced roles are not always career-ending roles where you don't need qualifications

They really are, in a huge number of sectors.

I know several women who have given up high powered legal careers where they worked 70-80 hours per week, and retrained as teachers. Rightly or wrongly, none of them had any difficulty walking into good teaching jobs at all stages of school, competing successfully against newly minted teaching applicants.

Taking a job as an office receptionist when your last job was a professional one is taking a job from a school leaver. I know two former professionals who have done that too.

So why on earth was I fed "you can do and be anything" in my highly academic girls school.

We were all fed that. And, of course, you can. If, however, you want to have children, then you have to accept that they need to be looked after. You therefore need to do one of the following:

• Choose a partner who will look after them while you work
• Pay an employee to look after them while you work
• Not work when they need looking after

I sympathise with your predicament; I’ve faced it and made the opposite decision and am a SAHM. In time, because economics always reigns supreme in the end, I’m sure there will be more men who stay at home/take the “second” job and the childcare issue becomes an age rather than purely a women’s issue. But, ultimately, employers want someone to do a job. They don’t care about your personal circumstances or your out of work commitments. I’m not quite sure what you expect or think should happen....

I feel your anger & pain, I definitely believed I could grow up & be anything & loved my career. After DC1 I really struggled and after 3 agonising months jacked in my career. I’m lucky in that I have family help & live close to the childminder & the school is on the next road. However long hours were a struggle & my job was not flexible at all (pt not really an option), plus it’s the times when you have an ill child or a nativity play that you really need flexibility.

I knew I wanted to still work so found a p/t localish job that tied in with some of my skills but it was a big pay cut, I acknowledge that Im fortunate that DH could cover the childcare. I then moved onto another pt job that built on those skills but paid more & went on to have DC2. The company relocated whilst I was on mat leave but I found an amazing job that’s closer, gives me flexibility & allows me to wfh when needed. I get 6 weeks holiday & my pay is much closer to my pre children levels ( still a bit to go). More importantly I feel so lucky that I have found another career with progression, something I didn’t think was possible. I’m p/t but have done a few f/t weeks but the short commute & flexi hours meant it was completely manageable. Also DH has flexi hours & occasionally can wfh, we share the burden if a child is ill which is important.