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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To not care whether people say sex or gender.

999 replies

TeeJay1970 · 11/12/2018 21:48

Many people and organisations use these words interchangerbly. The meaning is always clear. I actually don't give a stuff if others disagree.

OP posts:

Pennydrew142 · 15/12/2018 14:33

The reason people on here kick off about any sort of comparison is they hate comparing discrimination they don't agree with with discrimination they do agree with.

No. You’re being racist and I hate racism. There is no comparison between racism and males not being validated as female, something they’re not. The comparison would be with someone who is transracial. That’s the comparison. Both are forms of appropriation, one of black peoples lives, one of women’s lives. Both are equally disgusting.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 14:35

I took out "self ID" for that reason, Weetabix. I specifically quoted what you said about "sex segregated spaces" which you think a subset of male people should have access to.

Which means you don't actually support single sex spaces.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/12/2018 14:35

RatRolyPoly and GlitterStick

Thank you.

R0wantrees · 15/12/2018 14:35

I thought this was an interesting proposed sex-based difference

To not care whether people say sex or gender.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 14:35

It's you who keeps saying a man in a frock.

Of course.

Hyppolyta · 15/12/2018 14:35

A man who wears a dress is a man wearing a dress.

If you think that is an insult, go take it up with Mermaids or Stonewall or the TRAs who insist any man who wears a dress has to be a woman, as men shouldnt wear dresses.

No one here cares what men wear.
Though I would advise tights, its fucking cold wearing a dress at the moment.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 14:36

YY R0wan, that's a great quote.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/12/2018 14:40

A man who wears a dress is a man wearing a dress.
How is it only me saying it when other people say it?

It is not being said as a valueless comment.

Same as when I was calked "love" that was said as an insult. Stop the faux innocence.

Which means you don't actually support single sex spaces.

Yes, I support single sex spaces as provided for by law.

Datun · 15/12/2018 14:41

weetabix try and understand. It's not the clothes that are the problem. It's the notion that wearing those clothes changes your sex. In that a man can't just wear a dress, that if he wears a dress, he must be identifying as a woman, because only women wear dresses.

I realise it's a symptom of gender dysphoria, but it's detrimental to everyone, But especially women. Which is why women will address it, will challenge the concept.

jellyfrizz · 15/12/2018 14:41

If people who transition as adults were accepted and not derided as "men in frocks" then there would be less need for children to arrest the development of these characteristics would there?

If it were fully acceptable for men to wear frocks it wouldn’t be an issue either.

GlitterStick · 15/12/2018 14:43

You might not care what men wear, but you certainly care what women wear.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/12/2018 14:46

Datun

But I doubt that many dysphoric men put on a dress and then believe that they are a woman. It isn't just about wearing a dress and I think dismissing a very serious condition as just being about clothes is offensive.

The point I made earlier, and I stand by, is that a trans woman wanting a GRC has to prove that they are living meaningfully as a woman (whatever that means). That is conditions being placed upon them. You can't blame them for trying to comply with conditions that are imposed on them.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 14:48

Yes, I support single sex spaces as provided for by law.

Which aren't actually single sex spaces, because the law is an ass. And it's not actually clearly defined in law which spaces MTFs of various types can use.

R0wantrees · 15/12/2018 14:48

Fairplay For Women:

'A handy myth-buster copied with kind permission from transfacts.com'

fairplayforwomen.com/transfacts/

*as there is quite a bit of misinformation, mis-direction etc^

Original poster

TeeJay1970 · 15/12/2018 14:49

Holy crap!

My silly little thread has produced 1000 (nearly!) posts

Still not bothered.

OP posts:

PencilsInSpace · 15/12/2018 14:51

The evidence required for a GRC to show you have been 'living as' your preferred sex is 5-6 documents in your new name and gender to cover the whole of the two year period. Things like passports and driving licences but also pay slips, utility bills etc.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 14:51

The point I made earlier, and I stand by, is that a trans woman wanting a GRC has to prove that they are living meaningfully as a woman (whatever that means). That is conditions being placed upon them. You can't blame them for trying to comply with conditions that are imposed on them.

You made no such point. No one was talking about GRCs until you did. Talking about living meaningfully as a woman wasn't only about GRC applicants.

I've bolded a section. You don't know what it means, do you? See the problem?

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 14:53

I think dismissing a very serious condition as just being about clothes is offensive.

Who has done that?

Hyppolyta · 15/12/2018 14:53

What is, "living meaningfully as a woman?"

I have no idea, but I would guess it includes dresses and make up.

Its a joke, and utter outdated BS.

Datun · 15/12/2018 14:54

weet

I didn't say any of that though. I'm not saying they think they are women, I'm saying that they are buying into the concept that in order to identify as a woman they will wear a dress, and expect others to buy into the same concept. It's a damaging reinforcement of gender stereotypes. And needs to be questioned, particularly if one is actually a woman.

The 'living as a woman', is, of course, absolute nonsense. And does exactly the same thing. I disagree with it entirely. Just because it is currently an accepted process, doesn't mean it's a good one.

It just underpins how illogical and sexist the law is in the first place. If they have to invent a nonsensical phrase like 'living as a woman'. I've also never understood why it is that it poses a particular problem for a transwoman. Presumably, that's the goal anyway? Not the process to get to a different goal.

R0wantrees · 15/12/2018 14:55

My silly little thread has produced 1000 (nearly!) posts

Still not bothered.

It is already and will have further substantial impacts on many important issues, especially for women and children.

Many people are are not yet aware, when they start to realise they are bothered.

PurpleCrowbar · 15/12/2018 14:56

Weetabix - I'm in the uk next week, & have a night planned out where I may well run into an old friend.

He will more than likely be wearing a skirt - it's a goth night.

Since he's also a proud Scotsman I can envision his reaction at being told it's actually a kilt!

(He's firmly in the TWAW camp - we argue about it - but he's definitely a man who wears skirts a lot, & would tell you so).

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 14:57

I'm glad you can argue about it with your friend and not fall out, Purple!

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 14:58

You can't change sex.

FIN

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