To not care whether people say sex or gender.

[TeeJay1970]

Many people and organisations use these words interchangerbly. The meaning is always clear. I actually don't give a stuff if others disagree.

The whole thread is absurd.

We are now meant to feel sorry for transwomen who feel pressure to conform to feminine stereotypes- is that where we are?

You are comparing the wholescale murder of more than a million people, because of their race, to men not being allowed in womens loos.

If you can not see how what you are saying is wrong, you are either racist or ignorant.

The whole thread is absurd.

Seems to be a recent phenomena on AIBU when issues relating to women's sex based rights, safeguarding, sex/gender identity are started.

Same pattern. Discussing the issues made almost impossible.
Its been quite effective.

Transactivists will go to any lengths to force women into complying with male demands to end sex segregation.

Anything will be invoked. Race, children. Feminists will be blamed for men transitioning, gender roles, and finding reality 'unacceptable'.

Which is why everyone sees it for the men's rights activism it is. Women saying no must be addressed.

By any means. Which is why you end up with this utterly insane thread and people thinking they are coming across as rational!

Glitterstick people tried to disguise their race, as being black could get them abused, or worse.

Males try to disguise their sex to get into female spaces.

But I don't agree with that second statement.

Not all males are trying to disguise their appearance just to access female spaces. There are transsexual women who post on here who say they do not want to access female spaces.

Some men might well be doing it to access those spaces.

Some people want to transition because they have gender dysphoria. They are doing it for themselves not just to gain access to spaces. Yet those people will still be judged as a "man in a frock" unless they can make their appearance more acceptable.

I am saying that judging people based on their appearance causes people to try and change themselves, even when they can't change who they are biologically they are.

Nobody here is judging any Male ‘for their appearance’. We are not judging transwomen, we are excluding them from our space for being male.

You are being racist again and I’ll keep saying it until you stop. Are you a person of colour?

We are now meant to feel sorry for transwomen who feel pressure to conform to feminine stereotypes- is that where we are?

Apparently so.

Yet those people will still be judged as a "man in a frock" unless they can make their appearance more acceptable.

It's you who is finding their appearance unacceptable. You. Your projection.

No man, ever, can become a woman. No matter what he does to his hair, make up, clothes or body.

unless they can make their appearance more acceptable

No. You’re wrong. I don’t want them appropriating womanhood to fool me into trusting them when I am in a vulnerable position.

I want them to stay out regardless of their ‘appearance’ and solely because of their sex

Last week a thread discussing the very serious issue of Ian Huntly identifying as a woman and apropriating the name of the mother of one of the girls he murdered was derailed similarly.

Women's rights, free speech & safeguarding children, especially girls is always going to be a key concern for many on a parenting website like Mumsnet.

The issues are discussed on FWR chat & its almost as if some posters want to prevent the women and parents who don't visit that board from becoming aware.

it seems to be another manifestation of #nodebate

this thread has been described as useful to many of those who new to the discussion 7 serious issues:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

By any means. Which is why you end up with this utterly insane thread and people thinking they are coming across as rational!

Even when they try to pretend that there is no way of telling male from female. It is absurd.

Who is judging men in dresses?

How is it being made more acceptable? Where are the men stating they are man, in dresses, and that fine?

The only man I have ever seen do that publically was Hope in Pink Boots on Twitter. He did get abuse and judged, awfully so, but that was by trans rights activists.

Which makes me wonder why you are discussing it here, where its viewed as acceptable, and not with the people who do judge it as wrong?

Some people want to transition because they have gender dysphoria. They are doing it for themselves not just to gain access to spaces.

As these medics have outlined in the BMJ, there are a number of reasons:

Published 29 October 2018
'Redesigning gender identity services: an opportunity to generate evidence'
authors: Richard Byng, general practitioner and professor in primary care research, Susan Bewley, emeritus professor of obstetrics and women’s health, Damian Clifford, consultant liaison psychiatrist, Margaret McCartney, general practitioner and freelance writer
(extracts)
"A recent feature in The BMJ implied that new services are all that’s needed to improve transgender healthcare. Providing timely, sensitive services for all, including those who decide to not pursue treatment or detransition, is important. But the article did not question the steep rise in referrals of mainly young women or the potential harms of medical overdiagnosis and overtreatment" (continues)

"Regulated medical practitioners should follow a framework of evidence, not simply respond to client expectations. Creating that evidence to inform quality standards is an ethical imperative. We need research to explore the interplays between gender identity, mental health and neurodevelopmental problems, sexual orientation, autogynephilia, and unpalatable gender roles"

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3410257-BMJ-article-We-need-research-to-explore-the-interplays-between-gender-identity-mental-health-and-neurodevelopmental-problems-sexual-orientation-autogynephilia-and-unpalatable-gender-roles

And if you can't see the link between adult trans gender people being judged by society and the rise in the number of children taking puberty blockers then you are being short sighted.

If people who transition as adults were accepted and not derided as "men in frocks" then there would be less need for children to arrest the development of these characteristics would there?

I am completely on board with keeping sex segregated spaces and particularly against self ID.

I honestly cannot see how it is anyone's business whether another person looks masculine, feminine, passes or doesn't.

Anyone who judges someone else's appearance is part of the problem that society has with valuing the way someone looks above anything else.

The last paragraph stated men who wear dresses have to make themselves more acceptable to be viewed as women.

Its utter rubbish, humans cant change sex.

There is nothing humans can do to be viewed as the opposite sex.
That isnt a judgement call.

Its just fact.

I am completely on board with keeping sex segregated spaces

Except every post you've made on this subject that I've seen goes against that.

Fuck sake, I feel for you Weetabix. It's quite clear what your were getting at. The reason people on here kick off about any sort of comparison is they hate comparing discrimination they don't agree with with discrimination they do agree with.

There’s no ‘should’ about what females look like, it’s just factual that there are female and male characteristics, including but not limited to sex characteristics

Hahahaha, so there's no "should" about looking like a woman then? There are no socially imposed gender stereotypes? Ah fuck it, we've succeeded, gender is beaten!

I honestly cannot see how it is anyone's business whether another person looks masculine, feminine, passes or doesn't

Stop setting up straw men.

Hahahaha, so there's no "should" about looking like a woman then? There are no socially imposed gender stereotypes? Ah fuck it, we've succeeded, gender is beaten!

Of course there are stereotypes, ones which women on this board fight against while trans ideology reinforces them. No women here think there is a way ‘to look like a woman’. It’s pretty clear that is what I meant. But hey, you’re here supporting racist comments so....

Calling a trans woman a "man in a frock" is not being said as a compliment so stop trying to pretend that it isn't being used as an insult and that it is me projecting.

It is being used to put people down. To diminish who they are so stop pretending that you are intending it in any other way.

This seems a very useful article, rlevent to the thread (its quite a long read)

'DO WOMEN EXIST? – THE SCIENCE OF SEX, THE POLITICS OF GENDER, AND THE MATERIALIST AND DIALECTICAL THINKING NEEDED TO DISTINGUISH THE TWO'
(extract)
But first, let us return to the new-born baby. At the instant the baby’s sex is recognised, society also imposes on the baby – ‘assigns,’ if you like – a social role pertaining to that sex. From birth, male and female babies are treated differently, subjected to different expectations and different social conditioning – this is sometimes symbolised by wrapping the newborn in clothing that is pink for girls and blue for boys. This social role goes by the term ‘gender’ in current usage, although that is a fairly recent use of the word. The second-wave feminist writers of the 1960s and 70s generally used the term ‘sex roles’ to describe this phenomenon, and had that term been adhered to, much confusion could have been avoided.

Confusion between sex and gender, between objective biological fact and the social consequences of that fact, lies at the heart of this discussion and makes the issues unusually difficult to disentangle. Even relatively careful journalists, such as those at the New York Times, when covering the debate on changing the sex designation on birth certificates and related issues, frequently refer to this as changing one’s gender, or use the terms sex and gender interchangeably" (continues)
convincingreasons.wordpress.com/2018/12/10/do-women-exist-the-science-of-sex-the-politics-of-gender-and-the-materialist-and-dialectical-thinking-needed-to-distinguish-the-two/

Its utter rubbish, humans cant change sex.

There is nothing humans can do to be viewed as the opposite sex.
That isnt a judgement call.

Its just fact.

This, with great big festive jingling bells on.

Except every post you've made on this subject that I've seen goes against that.

Really? Post links then because I have always been very clear that I am against self ID.

It's you who keeps saying a man in a frock.