To not care whether people say sex or gender.

[TeeJay1970]

Many people and organisations use these words interchangerbly. The meaning is always clear. I actually don't give a stuff if others disagree.

As I said, Weetabix, the way you are framing everything is different to that of the majority of people on this thread, and in the wider world.

yup

there's men in frocks and men in frocks

david beckham doing it because he's experimenting with a new look is great. it's brave (although it shouldn't be)

charlotte clymer thinking their clothing and gold lame purse in some way 'prove' that they're female is conflating gender stereotypes with sex. it's not great, and I think it's cowardly

I guess it's the difference between me making an offensive attempt to speak pidgin english and a resident of Papua New Ginea speaking it

I know loads of men who wear frocks, if by that we mean 'garments which have skirts rather than trousers to cover the legs'.

Goth types in the UK, chaps in galibeyas where I live now.

All blokes.

Nowt wrong with 'men in frocks', anymore than 'women in jeans'.

If you're thinking it's a derogatory way to refer to a male person who happens to be wearing a dress, then I think you may need to consider WHY you assume there's something somehow demeaning about being, &/or being referred to, as a 'man in a frock'.

You can't change sex by changing your clothes.

Or, for that matter, by having plastic surgery, or just insisting you have changed sex.

It's not possible.

Maybe Charlotte Clymer wants feminine clothes and gold lame purse?
This is the same sort of shit all women get regardless from some.
No playing with Barbies, ditch the pink, maybe they WANT pink and Barbies, or revealing clothes FOR THEM?!
Nobody else.

Seems I have a limit, and it's where actual presumably bio women don't give a shit about women unless it's "their type" of woman who passed, even the bio ones.

What are you talking about. Feminism is about women, regardless of what they look like. What's the obsession with 'passing'? I don't think feminism is about males who want to present according to societies stereotypes about women, and therefore think that makes them a woman.

Maybe Charlotte Clymer wants feminine clothes and gold lame purse?

Charlotte Clymer can wear feminine clothes and have a gold lame purse. It in no way shape or form means they are in any way a woman.

Seems I have a limit, and it's where actual presumably bio women don't give a shit about women unless it's "their type" of woman who passed, even the bio ones.

WTF? That was to my comment. I said that most 'manly' women who don't conform to femininity (your words) would not care how they are read.

I answered that as a woman who does not conform to femininity.

I do not see how that means I do not give a shit about people like me. I am female because of my biology, not because of how I look. I don't give a shit if you (or anyone else) doesn't think I am female. Being female is not about how you look.

Charlotte Clymer said I bought a gold lamé pocketbook about two months ago, and it is one of the best purchases I've ever made. You see, every time I take it out, there's just no mistaking it. No cashier can look at it and reach any other conclusion than I must be a woman.

Charlotte Clymer can wear whatever he wants.

Its his claim that wearing those things make him female that people find ridiculous. Not the act of him wearing them.

Aaand back to toilets.

What's the obsession with 'passing'?

It's entirely their projection that other people here care.

It's a favourite derail.

as collateral damage in their war against trans women

Are you always a fan of such ridiculous hyperbole?

. I don't give a shit if you (or anyone else) doesn't think I am female.
So if a woman insists you leave the ladies toilet because they don't think you are female you won't care?

PurpleCrowbar

It's the intent behind calling them men in frocks though isn't it?

And I doubt you tell a man wearing a kilt that he is a man in a skirt. In fact it isn't called a skirt. It's given another name. Presumably because men don't like being told they are wearing a skirt or being referred to as a "man in a frock".

No women are being thrown out of loos because we think they are men.

What's the obsession with passing?
Well, it's plain to see, the masculine looking ones get the most shit thrown on here.
Seen the phrases brick shit house used on this forum for one.
Paris Lees looks feminine, if she wasn't famous, would anyone really know she was a transwoman?
We're not the one obsessing with passing.
And what I said was where do the masculine biological ones go because even the most rigid GC have said not always so I was just wondering
And to that someone said they don't care where they go

Aaand back to toilets.*

Well that's the objection isn't it? You don't want men in toilets or changing rooms. I thought that was one of the big drivers behind this - the safety of women in toilets.

Because if it isn't then surely it's just about a fundamental dislike of trans gender people which you all deny, so it must be about toilets then.

masculine looking that should say

*Well that's the objection isn't it? You don't want men in toilets or changing rooms. I thought that was one of the big drivers behind this - the safety of women in toilets.

Because if it isn't then surely it's just about a fundamental dislike of trans gender people which you all deny, so it must be about toilets then*

There are any number of female spaces other than toilets. What a bizarre train of thought

No women are being thrown out of loos because we think they are men.

How do you know?

It always comes back to toilets, yes because you say you don't want them in your spaces.
If it isn't about spaces, what is it then?
The fact they're trans?

The toilets thing is a frequent derailing tactic.

And I doubt you tell a man wearing a kilt that he is a man in a skirt.

Haha. Do you know anyone who wears a kilt? It's what they get all day long.