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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not care whether people say sex or gender.

999 replies

TeeJay1970 · 11/12/2018 21:48

Many people and organisations use these words interchangerbly. The meaning is always clear. I actually don't give a stuff if others disagree.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 13:43

It's not because they are trans, it's because they are MALE.

jellyfrizz · 15/12/2018 13:43

Maybe not in Scotland. I think you might get beaten up.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/12/2018 13:44

There are any number of female spaces other than toilets.

Toilets being one of them.

I coukd have said "changing rooms". Most of the other sex segregated spaces aren't self policed are they so inclusion or exclusion won't be down to the service users as it is with toilets and changing rooms.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 15/12/2018 13:44

None of these posters would care though because they would be viewed as collateral damage in their war against trans women

good grief Weetabixandshreddies, we're trying to have a serious, nuanced discussion here comments like this make you look a bit peculiar

Pennydrew142 · 15/12/2018 13:44

I can easily see a natal woman being rounded on and chucked out of a ladies toilet because a group of women wrongly identify them as a man.

Can you. Funny that I have never ever heard of this actually happening.

This is getting ridiculous

GlitterStick · 15/12/2018 13:44

Any number of spaces - yes, toilets, gyms, swimming pools all get brought up.
If it's not about the spaces though what is it about

jellyfrizz · 15/12/2018 13:45

And to that someone said they don't care where they go

NO ONE said that.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 13:45

I thought that was one of the big drivers behind this - the safety of women in toilets.

Not just safety. Privacy and dignity in all single sex female spaces. Right to organise against the sex based oppression which you don't personally see.

It's not about toilets it's about the category female.

JacquesHammer · 15/12/2018 13:46

Toilets being one of them

You see the bit where I said “other than toilets” that covered toilets being one of them.

I coukd have said "changing rooms". Most of the other sex segregated spaces aren't self policed are they so inclusion or exclusion won't be down to the service users as it is with toilets and changing rooms

Women’s prisons
Women’s refuges
Women’s sport
Women’s classes for leisure

All women only spaces which need to remain women only.

Hyppolyta · 15/12/2018 13:47

Weetabix there are hundreds of non GC women who are recognised as women everyday. Why are you convinced no one knows we are women and we wont be allowed to use female spaces anymore?

As to toilets and changing rooms, no we do not want males in fenale spaces.

Whether they are trans or not is irrelevant. As you well know, as I have told you myself before, males arent refused because they are trans.

They are refused because they are male.

Datun · 15/12/2018 13:47

"There's no value attached to it. I don't care
Really?"

Yet it is you and others like you who continually comment on it. Or refer to trans women as "men in a frock". Why would you say that if you don't care?

This does seem to crop up a lot. A man wearing a dress is a man wearing a dress. It is you who is viewing that as an insult.

There was that drag queen on Big Brother, who was absolutely gorgeous. Wonderful make up, the whole 9 yards. In terms of femininity. And then there is your fetishist cross dresser, who squeezes their legs into fishnets, with a short leather skirt and a revealing top.

Neither of them are any more woman than the other. Both of them are 100 percent male.

Do you get that weet?

PencilsInSpace · 15/12/2018 13:48

There are any number of female spaces other than toilets.

Yes, also things like awards, all women shortlists, women's officer posts, Jo Cox programme ... and occupations, not just things like rape counsellor but the right to have a same sex carer for example.

I have no idea why it always gets dragged back to a discussion about toilets.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 13:49

Because it suits the agenda of people who want to reduce it to that.

Pennydrew142 · 15/12/2018 13:49

Am I the only one insulted by the comparisons to black people Weetabix made? Men taking hormones to fit in are like black people lightening their skin due to racism. Ffs that crosses a line.,

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/12/2018 13:49

Do not dare to blame women for children or adults taking hormones.

Well I do blame anyone who wants to make another person feel excluded or unaccepted in society, for whatever reason.

If people were accepted for who they are regardless of what they look like I doubt many people would be rushing to take drugs, have cosmetic surgery, change their appearance if no judgements were placed on appearance.

So, yes I do blame anyone that makes another person uncomfortable about their appearance.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 13:50

I didn't pick up on that the first time. I thought she was making a general point about sex stereotypes. Having read back I see what you mean.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 13:51

So, yes I do blame anyone that makes another person uncomfortable about their appearance.

None of us are doing that.

PencilsInSpace · 15/12/2018 13:52

And statistics. I have been heartened watching the evidence sessions to the Scottish Government over the proposal to allow people to self-ID sex on the census. Lots of sensible contributions and the politicians seem on the whole to get it.

Here's the second evidence session with people who make use of the statistics generated by the census.

Pennydrew142 · 15/12/2018 13:53

Well I do blame anyone who wants to make another person feel excluded or unaccepted in society, for whatever reason.

Stop it. You are so absolutely vile I cannot believe you actually believe what you’re saying is in any way reasonable.

No woman is making a man uncomfortable because they wear a dress. You are claiming something that is untrue. We DO NOT want them to take hormones or blockers. Stop with your bullshit.

WE JUST DO NOT WANT MALES IN OUR SPACES. We are allowed to exclude males IN LAW from our spaces. That does NOT equate to excluding them from ‘public life’. They are males being excluded from female spaces

Your misogyny is so fucking gross

Hyppolyta · 15/12/2018 13:54

People should be accepted for who they are.

My sons played with dolls and prams, on occasion they dressed up in dresses, played with makeup, one son was obsessed with red nail varnish and wore it for months.

In my home, this is fine.

What is going wrong in other families that a similar child, playing in a similar way, would be fed puberty blockers and told they have to pretend to be female?

jellyfrizz · 15/12/2018 13:54

So, yes I do blame anyone that makes another person uncomfortable about their appearance.

Go after the people that push gender stereotypes then. They are not the people here.

PencilsInSpace · 15/12/2018 13:54

Am I the only one insulted by the comparisons to black people Weetabix made?

Fucking hell I missed that Shock

R0wantrees · 15/12/2018 13:55

Am I the only one insulted by the comparisons to black people Weetabix made? Men taking hormones to fit in are like black people lightening their skin due to racism. Ffs that crosses a line.

No you're not. I agree it crosses a line.

Sadly its a line that is often crossed by some TRAs with influence:

Guardian: 'Schools pulled into row over helping transgender children
As more teens come out as trans, experts clash over how schools should help'
(extract)
"Stephanie Davies-Arai, a parenting adviser, launched the Transgender Trend resource pack in February half-term, thinking it would barely get noticed. Instead, she says: “It just blew up”. The LGBT lobby group Stonewall accused Transgender Trend, the organisation Davies-Arai set up two-and-a-half years ago, of spreading “damaging myths, panic and confusion”, and advised local authorities not to use the pack. On Twitter, people piled in, with one describing the pack (which had been checked by lawyers) as a “modern edition of Mein Kampf”.

Davies-Arai says she took an interest in the subject because as a child she had felt herself to be a boy, and she didn’t think it was a good idea to label children like her as transgender because she believes that in some cases, these feelings resolve naturally by the end of adolescence.

While the Allsorts advice states that “trans pupils or students should have access to the changing room that corresponds to their gender identity” and that in PE lessons, students “should be enabled to participate in the activity which corresponds to their gender identity if this is what they request”, Davies-Arai argues that shared changing rooms present difficulties for some girls. Few teenage girls will be willing to admit that they feel uncomfortable sharing a changing room with a biologically male student, she says.

She points out that the technical guidance on the Equality Act for schools suggests offering students “private changing facilities, such as the staff changing room or another suitable space” – the approach taken at Miles’s school.

Susie Green, CEO of the charity Mermaids, disagrees, saying the debate about single-sex toilets seems “engineered to whip up fear” and is equivalent to “arguing people of colour shouldn’t be allowed to use the same toilets as white people in case they make them dirty”.
(continues)
www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

GlitterStick · 15/12/2018 13:56

Weetabix yes, it's not about daring to say women are to blame for hormones etc, it's something that would be said to anyone male or female who was doing it

PencilsInSpace · 15/12/2018 13:57

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